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10 Most Annoying Things Christians Say to Pagans, Witches & Wiccans

Updated on August 29, 2016
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Jo is an eclectic witch with a degree in Psychology and an obsession with novena candles. She primarily practices hoodoo and angel magick.

Christianity and Paganism

Christianity and Paganism often Clash Beliefs
Christianity and Paganism often Clash Beliefs | Source

To those of you who read the title and are thinking, "Hey! Why are you picking on Christians?" the answer is rather simple (though "picking" on anyone certainly isn't my intention.) Since coming out of the "broom closet" (and coming out of the closet as a bisexual woman long before that), I've noticed that the most vociferous attackers of Paganism online are Christians. I don't have anything against the Christian faith, but the simple truth is, it's not people of the Jewish faith quoting off-topic passages of the Torah on our message boards, it's not atheists telling us to turn away from our "evil ways," and it's not Hindus who spam our websites en masse by proselytizing. The Christian call to evangelize combined with the rampant bigotry towards Paganism and witchcraft in general within the Christian Church has led to what often feels like a witch hunt online.

When I first began researching Paganism, I wanted to reach out to others in the online Pagan community to ask questions and gain from their experience, but I was intimidated by the slew of Bible passages and all-caps rants about the "evils" of "devil worship" that seemed to plague every Youtube comments section, message board, and Tumblog on Paganism. It's one thing to share your beliefs in a respectful and intellectual manner on a website that is dedicated to the discussion of inter-faith topics. It is entirely another to go into someone else's "territory," which is what a niche website is, and force your beliefs down people's throats.

One recent example of this is a specifically Pagan blog I was reading recently. A relatively new witch was asking for advice which she clearly solicited from other Pagans and witches. She was met with a barrage of Christians spamming the comments thread with lengthy and out of context Bible passages, e-shouting all myriad of ignorant and bigoted comments. She never asked for their opinion.

In light of what seems like an ever-increasing epidemic, and understanding that there are Christians who truly don't realize that their online behavior towards the Pagan community is both counterproductive and just plain rude, I want to put this list out there to illustrate some of the worst (and unfortunately common) things that many Christians say in an attempt to "convert' Pagans. These are personal pet peeves, and I don't pretend to speak for the whole Pagan community, however.

For Pagans

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1. You just hate Christians/Christianity.

I dislike some Christians, just as I dislike some Pagans, Deists, Atheists, etc.. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are Christians, though, but rather who they are as people. In fact, I grew up as a Christian. Literally my entire family is composed of Evangelical, Charismatic Christians who belong either to non-denominational or Assemblies of God churches. I went to a Christian college, so a good majority of my friends are Christians. In fact, I'm ENGAGED to a Christian. Yes, I'm a Pagan engaged to a Christian, but that's a Hub for another day.

Admittedly, there are some of us in the Pagan community who have unfair animosity towards Christians. It's not an excuse, but it doesn't exactly come out of a vacuum. Most of us deal with attacks on our spirituality, morality, and sometimes our very physical safety on a daily basis, especially in the areas of the world that are very predominantly Christian. While most Pagans try to judge people on an individual basis, you have to understand that the moment a Christian inquires about that "star" hanging around our neck, there is going to be a moment of nervous pause while wondering if they're going to try to "witness" to us by randomly quoting Scripture, suddenly look at us like we're possessed, or worse.

The Bible is Not Part of Paganism

Bringing a Bible to a Pagan debate is NOT effective!
Bringing a Bible to a Pagan debate is NOT effective! | Source

2. You just haven't read the Holy Bible! Let me share this verse with you... Well, actually, I have read the Bible, many times. The NIV, the KJV, the NLT, and the Message, to be precise. I've also studied the Bible in its original languages and cultural contexts. I've written papers on the Bible, debated with some of the foremost Christian scholars, and I even have a degree from a Christian university. I think I've given the Bible a fair shake and, unfortunately, I find that I know the Bible better than most of the Christians who quote it at me.

3. If you were open to God's Word, you'd turn away from Paganism/Witchcraft?

No. I was open. In fact, I was so desperate to be a "good Christian" in my earlier years that I went so far as to perform self-hypnosis in an attempt to make myself "feel it." Assuming that you know a Pagan's spiritual and life journey and that just because they didn't come to the same conclusion as you, that Christianity is "the truth," is about as prideful as it gets and it's certainly not going to build any bridges.

Is Paganism Devil Worship?

All Pagans work at 666 Devil Worship Street, according to some Christians.
All Pagans work at 666 Devil Worship Street, according to some Christians. | Source

4. But witchcraft is devil worship!

The irony with this common comment is that most of us do not even believe in the devil, at least not in the way that Christians think. Most sects of Satanism don't even worship an actual devil and the ones that do view him very differently than you do. Trust me when I say, worshiping the Christian construct of the devil is not a part of any typical Pagan belief system.

Update: Read more about Satanism and Luciferianism HERE.

5. Your gods are just the devil/demons/evil spirits in disguise!

I think this one comes from the fact that many gods/goddesses in various pantheons seem at times to be amoral or, at the very least, capable of actions that would generally be perceived as immoral. The thing is, Paganism has a much more nuanced view of morality than the Abrahamic faiths. It's not that we don't have morals in our personal lives, but divinity is not linked intrinsically to "good" or "evil" in most schools of paganism. There are some deities that air more on the side of one than the other, but Paganism regards balance between light and dark as a good thing, not a band thing.

By contrast, Christianity embraces only light, and many of us feel that such a belief system is limiting to both the human and divine experience. Our deities are complex. They have individual personalities, stories, and yes, sometimes flaws, but that complexity is why we are drawn to them. YOU may see them as demons and you may feel the need to make everything black or white, but in doing so, you negate one of the primary elements of pagan philosophy and prove that you really don't understand our faith at all. Don't be surprised when we don't respect your assessment of it.

6. "You Pagan Satanist Wiccan Witches..."

Yes, some of us are pagan Wiccan witches, but assuming that all pagans are this or that is an automatic giveaway that you haven't really researched what you're talking about. Some pagans are witches. Some pagans are Wiccans. Some Wiccans are Witches. Not all pagans are Wiccans or Witches, and not all Witches are Wiccan or pagan. It just doesn't work that way. Paganism is a philosophy and a spiritual path that encompasses many different religions, Wicca is a faith that is also pagan, and witchcraft is a practice. There are atheist and agnostic witches, Jewish, Hindu, and Buddhist witches, and even Christian witches. A witch is just someone who practices Witchcraft. That's all, really. Some of us identify as Mages, Sorcerors, Ceremonial Magicians and Alchemists, and each label comes with its own meaning.

Within paganism, there are a variety of pantheons which a pagan may ascribe to exclusively, or along with one or more other pantheons. Before you label someone, get to know them. Ask them questions if it's appropriate in the context of your relationship, and don't assume you know what they believe just because you watched a documentary on witchcraft.

Witchcraft and Paganism Are Not Phases

Unless you can see into the future, don't accuse someone's faith of being a phase!
Unless you can see into the future, don't accuse someone's faith of being a phase! | Source

7. Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism is just a phase.

For some people it is. But those people are not truly Wiccans, pagans, or witches. True faith is not a phase, and it does not rely on a label. Sometimes people latch onto paganism because they believe it's trendy and, once they realize that true paganism requires in-depth soul searching, study, and spiritual devotion, they back out. Oftentimes they back out because they weren't expecting the amount of persecution that often comes with being open about one's pagan faith.

It's one thing to be persecuted for a faith that is an intrinsic part of you, but it's another thing to be persecuted for a fad that you only latched onto for social points in the first place! That doesn't mean that paganism is a fad any more than Christianity, and believe me, there are plenty of people who claim to be Christians because the vast majority of the population is, or simply to avoid being judged by Christians at work, school, or home.

8. I made a witch mad and now I'm afraid he/she is going to curse me! Help!

While I'm sure there are days all of us feel like putting a hex on that jerk who cut us off in traffic or took credit for our ideas at work, that's not how it works. We don't just go around cursing people left and right. In fact, Christians are much more likely to curse you. What, you say? Christians cursing people?? Yes, indeed. Remember the last time you prayed for God to "teach someone a lesson," or keep someone from doing something? Well, that's technically a curse. A curse is simply casting your intentions to some power outside of yourself in an effort to impede someone's free will. Christians do this all the time through prayer, and it takes nothing more than closing their eyes and sending a thought to their God.

The practice of cursing and hexing in witchcraft, however, is usually much more involved. Many (not all) of us use tools known as correspondences to work our crafts. Even a simple curse typically involves the use of one or more correspondences, and it must be done in a peaceful environment in which the witch is able to fully focus her intentions into the curse. Cursing is not something that is done on the fly. It takes a great amount of energy and, very often, the curse causes at least some negative repercussion to the witch, the least of which can be a drain of energy.

Another important aspect of cursing that most non-witches fail to understand is that many witches believe in something called the rule of 3. The rule of 3 states that whatever you put out into the universe comes back to you threefold. Some witches believe this to be a literal return of the curse multiplied by 3, while others feel that it's a more symbolic repercussion of negative actions taking place in the mind, body, and spirit. Not all witches believe in the rule of 3 by a long shot (myself included,) but many Wiccans do. The Wiccan rede also states, "An it harm none, do as ye will." For many witches, this is a prohibition against black magick, such as cursing, in all but the most extreme circumstances.

That's an awful lot to contend with just because someone cut you off in traffic, don't you think?

9. I don't believe in witchcraft. Witchcraft is just made up/imaginary/silly.

Strangely enough, I'll often hear 8 and 9 uttered within minutes of one another. Often those who put the least stock into witchcraft are the ones who fear its effects the most! You're certainly entitled to your opinion that witchcraft is not effective, but to claim that you don't believe it or that it's made up is a bit like saying that you don't think prayer exists. I may not think Christian prayer works, but I still acknowledge that Christians pray and thus, Christian prayer does in fact exist. Witchcraft is much the same. It works for us, just as your prayers work for you. No two Christians pray in exactly the same way (at least, I hope not!) and no two witches practice the Craft in exactly the same way. It's a personal experience. I, for one, believe without a doubt that magick is a real, natural, and powerful force in this world, even if we don't empirically understand all the laws by which it works and manifests.

Either way, just because you don't see the evidence that witchcraft is effective doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you. Much of witchcraft manifests internally, and helps us to meet our personal and spiritual goals. You wouldn't go up to someone and tell them that they're silly for praying or meditating, so refrain from making the claim that someone's Craft is ineffective just because YOU don't see the results that you EXPECT to see on the outside.

Witch Stereotypes

Stereotypes about witches run rampant!
Stereotypes about witches run rampant! | Source

10. You don't look/act/sound like a witch.

Just as there is no one type of Christian, there is no one type of witch. Some of us practice in traditional garb, while others practice the Craft in jeans and a t-shirt. Some of us have high-pitched, enthusiastic voices while others of us have deep, husky voices and speak in formal ways. Some of us are goth, some of us are preppy, some of us are rockabilly, retro, or vintage, and others of us just do well enough to leave the house in matching socks. There is no "right way" to look or act like a witch, but that being said, there is nothing wrong with attempting to dress or behave like a "traditional" witch, either. For many people, wearing the traditional garb of their ancestral heritage helps them to get in touch with the cultural aspect of their practice, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I myself lean towards more formality in practice as a Ceremonial Magickian, but some of my best practicing witch friends prefer to practice in jeans and a comfy sweatshirt.

The media perpetuates plenty of stereotypes about what a witch is supposed to look like. From the lovely ladies of Charmed and Buffy to the wart-laden crone in Snow White, everyone seems to have an idea of what a witch looks like. The simple truth is, a witch looks like your next door neighbor whose subtle pentagram necklace you probably haven't even taken notice of while chatting about your gardens. A witch looks like the guy at the checkout counter who strikes up a conversation with you about the price of groceries these days. A witch looks like that soccer mom you sit next to at your kid's game. Witches are everywhere, just like you. Get to know us for who we are, and you'll learn a lot more than any movie or TV show will ever tell you.

The Pagan Quiz for Christians


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    • profile image

      Katherine 34 hours ago

      Completely Alan, l've worked within the organisation for two years and never been asked to follow a faith. It is purely about me being supportive and caring to young people... my respect for all faiths will never wavier.

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      Alan 44 hours ago from Tasmania

      Katherine, that's an interesting perspective. I am just wondering if, as an agnostic, you would be allowed total freedom to remain agnostic, without having to be "educated" out of being agnostic.

      If the christians of that organisation are willing to be as open and respectful to yourself as you are to them, then there should be no problem.

    • profile image

      Katherine 2 days ago

      Hi I recently posted a job advert for a Youth worker on a community page. The successful candidate will be working for a Christian organisation. I than received a comment, "Mmmm shame Christian". I was at first offended by the comment (I'm not personally a Christian I'm egnostic and open and interested in all faiths) so I responded this way, "Thank you for the comment. The Organisation is Christian. Many supportive organisations have been started or set up by a Church including the vast majority of schools, soup kitchens and homeless shelters. With the aim to education, respect, support and be kind to one another, these are the Christian values the ad refers to. The Organisation is fully inclusive and just wants to give every young person a good start in life.

      Please don't take this comment as in a way trying to embarrass or shame I just want anyone thinking about applying to know all the facts. Young People first and always will be! Best wishes

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      Josephine 10 days ago from New England

      Thank you for your openmindedness, Lucy. The world would be a better place if more people were that respectful!

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      Lucy 10 days ago

      I personally don't believe in peganism but at the same time I'm open to the possibility that it's . I'm not omnipotent, I don't know everything and honestly who am I to tell you that you're lying. For all I know it could be completely true and I'm just plain wrong. As a Christian I just feel like it's ridiculous to tell people what is and is not possible, that's really hypocritical and unfair.

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      Casey 4 weeks ago

      Thank you for this.

      I actually had a coworker tell me my pentagram necklace was a satanic symbol. I told her it can't be because I don't believe in Satan. Her response was "Well, I am a Christian and I do so it is."

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      Josephine 5 weeks ago from New England

      Hi Robin,

      Thanks for your question, and for being openminded toward the craft and those who practice it!

      As far as being a Catholic witch goes, I was actually always drawn to Catholicism from a young age, loved angels, and even when I ID'd exclusively as pagan, I felt more drawn to the Virgin Mary than I did to the traditional goddess archetype. Being raised in a spiritually and otherwise abusive Evangelical household, witchcraft and Catholicism were equally verboten (weird, I know!) I always said that I left Christianity because keeping an open mind and searching led me away from it, and it did. I found spiritual healing in the witchy and new age communities and am still very much a part of them. But that honest searching also led me back to the path I believe I would have found sooner if abusive Christianity hadn't been blocking the way. When I worked through the pain caused by Christians and separated my conception of God and the Church from that, and found the Old Catholic tradition which is very welcoming historically and currently to witches, I knew I had finally found my spiritual home. :)

      I will always be a witch, it's literally in my DNA. Witchcraft is a spiritual practice, and it opened my eyes to the esoteric truths that actually led me back to Catholicism, but I've always said you can be a witch and be an atheist, or nearly any other religion. And I still very much believe it! Going back and re-reading the Scriptures I was raised to memorize, I sometimes scratch my head and wonder how I didn't see those same principles permeating them! Hope that answers your question and explains the direction my path has taken a bit. :)

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      Robin 5 weeks ago

      Hi...... I'm on research right now FYI Christian background........ read your article and found it very interesting. I'm non condemning and actualily intrigued by spells/Magick/ witchcraft however would not dabble or convert. Josephine i would like to know what made you convert over to Catholic.

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      Josephine 5 weeks ago from New England

      Hi Nichole,

      Thanks for a kind and thoughtful response! Glad you enjoyed the article. :) And I agree, it's definitely a more wide-reaching problem. It's hard to believe it's been 2 years! In that time I've become Catholic but still consider myself a practicing witch and find I'm still fielding these 10 questions/comments mentioned in the article. If anything probably moreso than before! lol

    • profile image

      Nichole 5 weeks ago

      Hi Josephine,

      I enjoyed reading your article. The way you wrote made it fun to read and the content was informative. I find what you say so true too, people are pushy! People try to control other peoples life journeys and most of them come from some Christian sect, it is the major religion so I'm not surprised that there are so many Christian responses these days... And, it's never bothered me there are so many people with terrible communication... Being that bad communication is a problem bigger than all the Christian populous (haha). But, there comes a time when peace fills your life and none of this will ever bother you anymore. It's been two years since you've posted this article though? If you do read this, thanks for the read.

    • limpet profile image

      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 months ago from London England

      Merrie we meet.

      May day coming at the start of a new week.

      Who will be our 'May Queene' this year?

      More to follow!

      Bless.

    • limpet profile image

      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 months ago from London England

      Merrie we meet.

      As a new holiday draws near, it is 'tyme'

      to leave the dystopia of this troubled and

      beligerant society for the calm and peace

      of the ethereal realm.

      Many blessings to all kindred spirits.

      the Limpet.

    • modernalchemyst profile image
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      Josephine 3 months ago from New England

      Such as? LOL!

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      i know 3 months ago

      You fabricated something about yourself in this article. You should rethink that and apologize to readers.

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      Nelis van Wieren 3 months ago

      Saw this on someone's fb wall. Very interesting. Not my thing though, but neither is christiany or satanism

    • profile image

      Shawn 3 months ago

      Omg this article gets me I actually have a problem with my parents that keep saying witches and aliens took me. She said witches fly on brooms I said witches don't fly on brooms every one forces me to stop practicing witchcraft and stop believing in magic! It's annoying plus that gave me wrong information on what's magic. BTW a lot of people say that I worship Satan. Even my friend made fun of me cause I'm a witch! That I still kept practicing and follow my own path.

    • modernalchemyst profile image
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      Josephine 3 months ago from New England

      Hello again, Limpet! Hope you're doing well. :)

    • limpet profile image

      Ian Stuart Robertson 4 months ago from London England

      Merrie we meet.

      Limpet here once more after a too brief sojurn

      in realm of the 'fae'. I'd forgotten about the hub

      activity in this genre but back on track now

      Many blessings to all kindred spirits.

    • profile image

      Brianna 4 months ago

      Love this so much.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 months ago from Tasmania

      Michael, thank you for your courteous reply. I did not wish to imply that you were "on the attack," that might be the impression you got, but no. I was simply addressing your approach from your christian point of view. And that's all it is, isn't it? A christian point of view.

      My point is that your christian religion, all your beliefs, all your traditions, are no more nor less valid than any other belief presented here within a hub addressing pagan and wiccan beliefs. (By the way, I hold neither. Just interested in their perspectives, that's all, and respecting at the same time.)

      However, your responses so far have been in the best christian tradition: you present yourself as kindly, friendly, approachable. You quickly defer to the bible as your guide and only reference. And, please be honest here --- isn't your sole reason for being here the object of evangelism? In other words, your presumption, along with the presumptions of every other stalwart christian, that your journey is applicable to everyone else in the world.

      You have taken the roads on your journey which have led to your understandings now. All those "-isms" which you have explored, the yoga, meditation, etc., have brought you to this point in your life, on your journey. Fair enough. No problem with that. Total respect.

      But let others follow their own journey too. Don't presume that you need to, or even have the right to, interfere in the journeys of others. You are not free to judge, even with that bible in your hand, that all other belief systems are subservient to your christian one. Because they are all based upon beliefs, with no actual proofs. So, each to their (our, my) own journey.

      You are in a hub which was intended to address the criticisms leveled at christians. The least you can do is read through those again and again, assessing and reassessing each one and compare them to your own attitude to any person who of their own volition chooses, at this point in time, to follow a journey which is not conducive to the way you see it....at this time.

      Don't be surprised if your attempts at evangelism here fall on stony, non-receptive ground. I reject it all, thank you, so please don't even try, don't even presume you are free to pray for me. That I would see as an intrusive insult.

      Continue your own journey, leave others to theirs.

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      Michael 4 months ago

      I want to clarify that if I in some way I appeared to be on the attack or seemed as if I'm judging or holier-than-though; well then I regret my wording. That is not my intent. There are a handful of things I know for certain and one is that I am not very wise, strong, intelligent(although the majority of my life can be defined as me trying to be all of those things) and so forth and I am definitely not better than anyone else. Josephine If I seemed to be attacking you, your post and the material in presented I apologize, that was not my intent.

      So first I have to say that in me expanding on anything, I go from the bible. I have tried so hard to find myself smart and knowledgeable, studying everything from psychology, to quantum physics to all the isms(and in fact practicing many of them and getting into transcendental meditation, various hindu yogas, demonology, seals of solomon, etc.) and everything between. In all of this I learned how human I am and that the only thing I can trust is the one unchanging divine thing in this material world and that's the bible - I certainly can't trust myself! (or other people).

      So I want to clarify that my confidence will always come from the bible and what it says, not from me or anything else. Not trying to incite anything just laying myself out and letting you know where I stand :)

      So original sin in essence was doubting God. That doubt led to an action. But basically the doubt was an act of question that which really is not questionable; not questionable in that you should not question, not that you can't. The reason being that the God of the bible is perfect, eternal, unchangeable and the source of all good things. To question that is begin to disagree and step out of the bounds of that which is in line with God; and God being spirit is basically an eternal existence consisting of certain character qualities. Those qualities, when one steps out of step with those qualities, is stepping out of line with all that is perfect, unchanging, eternal, joyful(and we all have been lied to a lot about joy and that vs. happiness - I KNOW I HAVE!), beautiful, eternal.... all that is holy basically; holy being set apart and unlike anything else.

      Now along with this big bag of wonderful traits come perfect justice, long-suffering and desire to do good. Putting those together we get excommunication from the garden as apposed to an immediate response of God punishing the offense made against His holiness. See if there is a God, and He is perfectly holy, eternal and pre-existent to all other things, and those things are made by Him, we don't have a leg to stand on if we've committed violence to His holiness lol. The holiness, being first, eternal, unchangeable and not subject to any other thing must be maintained and defended; that is part of a Holy God being a Holy God.

      So instead of responding with immediate justice, God (who had already planned His response to what He already knew man would do in their free choice) removed man from His presence. The rest of time is centered around God's plan to respond to God's justice through God's love for God's own sake; His own sake because He made us for love and fellowship with Him, and being that this is God's will it cannot be thwarted. If God has made people to ultimately share in His fellowship and enjoy Him for eternity it will come to fruition.

      It can be looked at as punishment, but it's more about God maintaining His holiness and being true to who He is... and that's because He can't change... and He can't change because He's perfect; to change is to say that at one point before or after change there was perfection and at the other side of the change the state that declared perfection changed; and perfection cannot cease to be perfection as that is one of the qualifying characteristic of perfection.

      Now at the same time God LOVED US. So God took on God's declaration of justice in our place at the cross. And it had to be God, because the offense, among other things, is eternal and God being eternal answers to that quality and degree of offense. Even if any human was perfect and took God's justice, God's wrath would not have been completely exhausted or satisfied.

      But it also quantifies His love by showing Who He chose to be the substitute... HIMSELF (while also being His Son.) Maybe we can talk about trinity later? :]

      These are the mechanics behind the current court system, although we has humans can corrupt the process.

      This was really short but I hope it cleared some stuff up.

      Again I am sorry if I upset anyone or came across snarky. That was not my intent. I certainly appreciate responses and am eager to read what anyone has to say without immediately judging it.

      One more comment in regards to the beliefs thing... I spent the first 30 years of my life exhausting various beliefs and ended up in a very dark place. I can say for me I found the one that set me free... and I don't mean to boast, that's not my intent. But I remember being lost and depressed and hurt and confused and prideful and tot ashamed to admit to who I was until after all the studying and all the religious practices and mantras and symbols and meditation and blahblahblah I was finally able to stop. I was finally able to rest. Someone else had already done what had to be done for me. He did it for me when I did not even ask. Such peace.

      Anyways, thanks for your thought provoking response Alan - I really do appreciate you replying. You know... I really don't like small talk lol and I love every opportunity to have deep, thought-provoking conversations :]

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      Alan 4 months ago from Tasmania

      Michael, can you expand on your concepts of original sin, sacrificial crucifixion, guilt, a punishing god and all the hyperbole that surrounds your christian religion?

      Josephine was expecting the sort of one-sided christian rhetoric which you have written about here in your post. You are entitled to write whatever you feel is close to your heart and understanding. I respect that.

      However, is it respect on your part to insist that your religious understandings are paramount and over-ride the beliefs of anyone else?

      Any person who feels it in his/her self to hold pagan or wiccan beliefs is just as free to do so as you are to hold your christian beliefs.

      Any, and I repeat "any" belief is only and just that. Any belief suits the needs of the person who is believing. If we can just respect that of our fellow humans, then we will help to make a better world in which to live in harmony.

      Even harmony itself requires the input of different frequencies, different notes. You, I, all the people contributing here, are all member frequencies of the world wide web of harmony.

      But it helps if we at least sing in tune.

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      Michael 4 months ago

      I don't expect anyone to swallow it :) I am very familiar with the other 'valid or more so's. Would not mind going in to that if desirable. I have done anything but disregard other options... i can go into my history if you'd like. If you don't mind catering to my curiosity, could you expand on your idea of valid?

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      Alan 4 months ago from Tasmania

      Michael and "the2ndbirth," your absolutism, your presumption that everyone else needs to swallow that bait about original sin, your disregard for any other knowledge besides your interpretation of an ancient language --- this is why I have so much more time for people who are wiccan or pagan. It is not necessary for me to "believe" what they believe, only respect them and hear their statements about what they believe. They show simple, humble acceptance.

      Your christian rant is just that. Believe it as you wish, but it is only one impression of life. There are others, equally valid if not more so.

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      Michael Hall 4 months ago

      One of the key things is a person's concept of absolute truth; that persons understanding in regards to Holiness/absolute perfection(and all that comes with it, such as perfect love, perfect justice, etc.) and what is the outcome if and when this absolute perfection and Holiness meet something that is any other than that(absolute perfection and Holiness.)

      Another thing to consider this is infinite chasm that stands between the two in regards to the ability to understand or even partially grasp such concepts. Basically that which is absolutely perfect and Holy has to reach out to that which is not. That which is not has no ability in and of itself to do anything to it's own benefit(although it may think otherwise, and it's very nature can come to a countless number of conclusions that are anything other than the absolute perfect conclusion.)

      We as humans could, in theory, show a dog the way to it living a completely rewarding and much fuller life, being that we have a perspective, understanding and access to resource that the dog does not. Unfortunately, the dog in it's own power has no ability to respond or understand what we offer. Also, in the case of the human and the dog, the human has no power to do what I hypothetically mention.

      Now this absolutely perfect and Holy entity does have that power. But man, like the dog, has no ability in of itself to recognize the Perfect and Holy entity as even existing as it is, let alone does man have the ability to realize it's need. This is something that God must grant, by repentance, through the truth.

      The truth is we have offended a Holy, perfect, innocent and eternal God who's original intent was to create us for blessed fellowship and existence in eternal perfection and limitless joy. In our sin, we have separated ourselves.

      Now the next issue is the fact that God being perfect and in complete fullness in all ways, cannot ignore any offense - much like NO ONE would ignore the assault and murder of an infant. The crime is heinous, because of the offense, but also because of who is offended.

      We do not realize the severity of offenses committed toward a holy and perfect and eternal God. And we in of ourselves can do nothing about it. God has provided the solution. Just as we cannot create ourselves or even do anything that is really that great (we die without a few days of water! REALLY!?), we cannot save ourselves.

      But God has made a way, through faith, for anyone to reach out and grab God's offer of salvation. Faith, for many reasons, one of which being it takes our eyes off of ourselves, it counters pride, and it turns us away from self-sufficiency and self-sufficiency is utterly dead at it's conclusion.

      Jesus did what we couldn't; while we were yet sinners He came and died, satisfying the wrath of a Holy God, who cannot in His perfection, ignore anything, while also living a perfect life, and in doing so was able to recon that to our account that we could be reconciled to God and being the restoration process of what was our original intent - fellowship with a loving God who desires us more than we could possibly imagine.

      I would caution not to expect or qualify your salvation or walk ON EXPERIENCE. EXPERIENCE NEGATES FAITH. That is not to say that experience cannot follow and validate that which one already has faith in. But experience-seeking is a very dangerous thing if one is to seek humility, run from pride and walk by faith. The fact is we all are born into iniquity, shaped in sin, and are caged within these fallen bodies of countless shortcomings; these suits of corruption.

      You come to God and receive his helping hand through Christ and His Spirit by faith, and you continue to walk by faith. The fallen body we are born into profits nothing - at least not on the grand scale. We may do minor things here and there but in the ultimate scheme of time, as all things are meeting their ultimate destiny of dust and rust, their is nothing we can do of any lasting circumstance outside of God. When all is burned away, all that will remain is that which can measure to God's perfect and holy standard; that being the new heaven and new earth, and our new incorruptible bodies that will surround our current spirits that can only be livened by God's Holy Spirit.

      And a note on God's Spirit; that is the only source of true life as it is the source of all origination. God is the source of all things and if any thing is said to have any thing that can be called good, it is because it borrowed or received that good from the original source. That original source, being God, is the definition of good. We as humans do a pretty horrible job of deciding and qualifying what is actually truly good.

      Woah sorry for the rant. Could not help myself! Look forward to any constructive responses :)

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      the2ndbirth 5 months ago

      If you guys want to find God and experience Him, you have to follow the directions. 1st..make sure you hold no UNforgivenss towards anyone. Forgive anyone who has every trespassed against you. 2nd Change your mind about sin (repent) toward God, while believeing that his Son Jesus died and rose again as payment for sin. You must not only believe that He died, but KNOW that He is alive NOW. 3rd. You WILL recieve the Holy Spirit and be able to do certain miracles just by speaking them. That right there, is an awesome God. Saving us by repentance and faith in his Son alone, and giving us some really cool gifts once we have received the Holy Spirit. Best high I ever had.

      If a Christian judges you harshly, more than likely, he is not yet born again. When someone become born again, it is a supernatural event that will rock their world.

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      Eternal Moon 5 months ago

      As a witch myself i actively keep everybody mouth shut. Since 12 people knows that Im a witch and 3 wanting me to teach them, Im confused. I need help!!!

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      Wicca Chick 6 months ago

      I have kept my broom in the closet, but I want to know how to at least tell my severely Christian dad that I'm Wiccan, because I don't like hiding stuff from him, for fear of breaking his trust. Two of my friends have already "figured it out" that I'm a witch, but I keep telling them they're wrong. I'm so confused as to what to do!

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      KJBFisher 7 months ago

      My personal favorite could be #11:

      "You should just pray to god to help you with your problems."

      Pray to their God they mean! A God I do not believe in. Such mind numbing, clueless, ignorance is just down right insulting and disrespectful! I get it from friends, and relatives who ought to know better because I quit hiding that I am Wiccan a long time ago. To me it is like a Muslim saying to a Christian, "Convert to Islam and praise Allah or die." They just cannot grasp the concept that not everyone believes the same way they do. It just serves to make me feel more alienated and alone than I already do. Of course their answer to that would be to, "come back to God and good Christian ways. Go to church." And do what? Live a lie? That would be a sin. I was raised Baptist so I know what a sin is.

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      Natalucci 8 months ago

      Can I ask, is there any thing I can do to conceive a girl ??? I've been trying to eat the certain foods & times of the month and all that.............anything else someone can tell me that worked for them ???

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      Limpet 9 months ago

      Don't forget that Christians were also martyred for their beliefs from the 11th century through to the 15th century. Look up the Waldensians, Hugeneots and Lollards. Even Quakers were given a hard time by overzealous magistrates right up until I688.

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      StacyF 9 months ago

      I cannot thank you enough for putting this out there. I am a descendant of the salem witches and you should see the looks on people's faces when I tell them that. I grew up christian myself too and although I didn't attend a christian college I studied scripture at length and compared it in all languages it was ever in.

      I'm from an ancient celtic bloodline so witchcraft is in my genes. No sense trying to ignore it, I embrace it. My ancestors were amazing healers and were put to death on just an accusation of being evil. Sadly there are still many today who would do the same to me if given the chance. The lack of knowledge and ignorance religions plague humanity with get innocent people killed. This madness has to end. I am sick of hearing how evil I am and getting offers for free exorcisms.

      I do not know why but you are right Christians do this the most. I never get backlash from any other group but Christians. When I was a christian all my life. I saw how quickly some will turn on you. The hypocrisy of Christians in America is astounding. If they actually practiced what they preach they would advocate for world peace. Stop paying their taxes that fund genocidal wars. They would rather spend their time arguing about who is the anti-christ and when the rapture is coming. Sad world this is. Religion is POISON

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      Lee Phillips 9 months ago

      I'm Christian, but I've taught myself to respect all religions because when it comes down to it, we're all human and that's what matters. My religion used to brainwash me to believe that "non-Christians" are going to hell and for that reason I was terrified to talk to anyone that isn't Christian because I couldn't bare the thought of anyone going to hell. Then I made a friend who was a Hindu, and that really opened my eyes to how amazing people can be regardless of religion and I still talk to her to this day. Because of her and my own maturation, I've learned to respect every religion, and most religions fascinate me to the point that I can read and learn things about them for hours. I'm now a very open minded Christian and I believe that everyone (except the worst of people) goes to heaven. A person'/ religion doesn't matter, what matters is their personality (whether they're nice and open minded or not).

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      Alan gibson 11 months ago

      Someone want answers on religion if I told you the truth no one would believe me anyway. I do have to answer so at last we could bring back our god of love and why was he banished from us all, god of love - loved his wife and never wanted any other except the love of his wife one day she became ill god of love started to panic and asked the other gods to form a miracle to save his wife but the other gods said but why do you want to save you wife there are many who can satisfy your lust why is she so different and special to you. god of love said a man should marry once to carry the name forward in life than a mixed relationship. the other gods replied as long as man enjoys his women he is doing no harm. god of love said I am the god of love and I want my people to love their first love than sharing others and women spawning children with different fathers will break the law of religion, the other gods replied again then if it happens then let it be and to show you god of love we will not help your wife and you must learn our ways of satisfaction of what we choose to satisfy our lust. God of love wife died and he was devastated losing the woman he loved so dearly he got very angry with the other gods and for that they banished the god of love and said no one will ever pray to you ever again and you will live on to the end of time with a different Name we will call you and your prayers will never be answered by your people ever again we cast you a fallen Angel, the missing link and why he is never around to save us, we all in life pray to the wrong God of our world and why there is so much hate and ignorance in our world the Rapes the Killings the Thieves and the Wars thrive in our world today with greed too and without god of love. our world is dying very quickly because of the gods who thought they had the answers to everything, the missed pages are now back, but is there any hope or chance of saving our god of love. I can't answer that only to the people of our World who can do that, and who is the person that no one has ever praised to the lord forgiveness, this was the true bible and the one we see now was phyxius definition by corruption of religion,

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      Alan gibson 11 months ago

      Pagan witches and all others are Spiritual like myself. and yes people never understood the gifts we had put them to death by burning them to the stake, they are now called by spiritual reincarnation as the shadow people and they are still angry and for those who see them comes from their ancestries who put them to death and the curse was placed by them at the stake.

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      Limpet 11 months ago

      Merrie we meet.

      As the is now a lull in newer articles on the hub pages i've been looking at previous postings of articles pertaining to folklore and also the metaphysical. I'm more at home in the paranormal/supernatural than the humdrum of normality.

      many blessings to all kindred spirits.

      Limpet

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 11 months ago

      Ha, I came across this again and it made me laugh because I just recently came across someone who said a couple of things on your list to me. So true!

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      Nina 11 months ago

      Wicca is the most peaceful religion it's very similar to Buddhism and for ppl to say otherwise then they absolutely know nothing about it. It's a beautiful religion and unlike Christian faith we don't try to brain wash people. People are welcome to their own opinions but plz don't smear the name of us good wiches. I'm a very proud Wiccan and I do not push what I believe in on anyone that includes my lil one which she too wants to follow in the Wiccan faith. So I'm very proud of being a witch and my lil one as well. Blessed be.

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      Josephine 12 months ago from New England

      @KnowNotAll, well said! Arguing one set of beliefs based on the assumption that everyone shares them really isn't very effective. And I'm glad more people are becoming aware of the differences between witchcraft in general and Wicca. You would be surprised how many people who consider themselves witches don't know it!

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      KnowitNotAll 12 months ago

      @Menelius Old Pagans from my home area believed that the god of shapeshifting (Yuriya) was meschivious but he was not the devil. That is because Pagans and Christians do not share the same beliefs. So your argument is invalid.

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      KnowitNotAll 12 months ago

      Don't mean to frighten anyone but I grew up surrounded by witches and most of them were Christian. Yep, the ones that went to church and believed in God and Jesus. Only a small number were atheist. Wicca is something I first heard of about 7 or 8 years ago. Witchcraft has nothing to do with worshiping anything, no devil and no god(s). Any worshiping would have to do with religion. In case of Wicca they do worship gods but worshiping the devil is not part of their religion. Wicca and Witches I knew are very different though. Wicca has a lot going on with altars and all the other stuff, very much like religions. They are also super harmless since they don't believe in hurting people. Witches in general can choose when they want to be bad and not just choose one side, bad or good. I know a lot about Witchcraft I've observed but there is little that I know about Wicca. Interesting people, though.

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      Limpet 12 months ago

      My actual involvement with real life 'wyches' in the past has been both manevolent and also benevolent. To illustrate my point here firstly, i have never been appealing to the opposite gender to the point of experiencing a very lonely 'tyme' when it should for me have been the best years of my life. When i contacted a Wiccan high priestess informally for advice she informed me that in order to progress i had to perform unpaid work for her until such tyme as i was ready to be ready to advance in 'the craft'. When i went for one of my frequent readings with a reliable clairvoyant i was told that there was a particular very powerful group who were only using me and in fact hated the sight of me. But there was one very adept lady who did confide in me telling me that i had suffered too much and unfortunately for me would never achieve the enlightenment i was expecting. So now i am trying to develope my own sixth sense and try to forget the bad 'olde' days.

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      Alan 12 months ago from Tasmania

      @ Menelius: you seem to be confused by definition, like many people who claim to be christians here. How can you be confused into thinking your "Christian beliefs" are not religion?

      Please, see for your self, this first definition I can across: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion

      It tells us precisely the meaning of religion. But you are correct in telling your fellow christians to back off from judgment of those who believe differently.

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      Josephine 12 months ago from New England

      I appreciate your input, Manelius, and you're certainly entitled to believe whatever you like, but to say that I'm partly correct is based purely on your interpretation as a Christian (which I was for many, many years) just as my interpretation of your God is based on my own beliefs. Lucifer is a deceiver to you, but to many of us he's the one who brought sentience to humanity while the Biblical god is the one who punished mankind for a problem he created. It's all a matter of perspective.

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      Menelius 12 months ago

      Hello

      As one who just started to delve into christian belief (NOT religion), I can say you are partly correct. You may not necessarily be willing to pray to the devil and his minions. Problem is, the devil is according to the Bible the greatest deceiver in the universe. Shapeshifting into something which resembles some of your gods is a feat he can do with greatest ease. And its not just the Bible: Theres a ghosthunting duo on youtube (The only ones I trust) who have encountered numberous legit paranormal activities. Now they didnt grow horns or loose their sanity in the end, but there were some minor possessions going on, and quite a lot of poltergeist activities too. Could be these were spirits who wanted to be left alone, could also be demons too.. Point is, we dont know, and man is always afraid of the unknown. But the bible tells us exactly how to protect ourselves from it, and preaches us to stay way from it. So thats exactly what we christians will do. Remember Lucifer is in our books the greatest deceiver, and he gains his strength through people who deny his existence.

      But now to the fellow christians who shout and scream against heathens and judge:

      You are nothing but hypocrites. Read Matthew 6:5, or better, read through the whole Matthew 6, if you want to know what I mean. I dont know how God may judge you, but I really think you are going the wrong way by pointing your fingers at others. Leave them be. They are non of your busyness. And if you still want to try and convert them... well, the way you are doing it now is certainly not productive.

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      Josephine 13 months ago from New England

      RaeAnn, wow, what a bizarre idea! Some of the stereotypes people perpetuate are just from a place of incomprehensible ignorance. I can't comprehend it, either.

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      Alan 13 months ago from Tasmania

      GraueHexe, thank you for that impassioned account of your early life.

      My thoughts are that those "Christians," feeling they are so blessed by forgiveness, the Love of Christ, being right with their God, etc..... they would regard their "beliefs" as not in any way superstitious.

      Their superstition has a direct, adverse affect on the lives of others whom they regard as "not saved," and therefore inferior to their Christian standing.

      In my opinion they are thus blind, ignorant, self-deceiving, displaying anything but a fearless outlook on life.

      How much of this religiosity, cloaked with a false name of "faith," is prevalent throughout the United States?

      I don't accept the basis of any of those superstitions, even yours, but your Wiccan beliefs seem much more loving and accepting that the Christian ones, in my view, so I respect what you have written.

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      GraueHexe 13 months ago

      I absolutely loved this article! I grew up in a Christian household, but I've known I was a witch since I was 4 years old. We had blackberries and raspberries in our backyard and I brought my basket out there to pick some and when I reach out my hand a woman glowing in all white with raven hair told me that I have to ask the plant if I can take the berries, but I wouldn't hear the answer I would feel it. So I did and I felt this warm energy rush over me and I knew it was okay to take some berries. Then she told me to thank the plant and that I should give something back to the plant, and told me to run inside and get an egg and come back and then she kissed my forhead. When I came out she was gone but I knew I had to do somehow (now I know she had imparted wisdom into me). I cracked open the egg and scooped out the yoke, then poured the white of the egg under the bush. I continued to learn when I could and when I was 12 I had about 6 books, some herbs, and some spell boxes. My mother, a devout Christian, found them, flew my aunt up from FL to NJ where we lived and they both confronted me. They made me smash the boxes and burn everything in the fireplace as they placed their hands on me. Then to make sure I wasn't possessed by the devil they made repeat the Lords prayer over and over and over again. Sunday happened to be the next day and they paraded me in front of the entire congregation. I was surrounded by I dont even know how many people laying hands on me and praying, some people refused to get that close to me. It was a small town even after that if one of those people saw me around town they would turn and walk the other way, stop and make me stand there while they LOUDLY prayed over me, or they looked terrrified and just kept coming while they vowed their heads and prayed silently with their lips moving. My mother had institutionalized at a religious facility for 30 days because she caught me with another book again about 3 weeks later. I have nothing against the Christian faith, but most of them are quite hypocritical when it comes to throwing stones at glass houses of what they consider sinful. Even now I wear my jewelry proudly and 50% of the time i go to the grocery store some tells me, I'm going to hell, I'm lucifer's mistress, I'm just another demon in the dark one's legion, and so many more. I'm just tired of it. I'm a really nice person and I dont bind, banish, or hex anyone unless they truly deserve it, and to this day I've only had to bind one person and thats it. People are scared of what they dont understand. The Bible has them completely closed minded to our kind. Whatever happened to love thy neighbor as you would love thyself?

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      RaeAnn 13 months ago

      i simply don't understand. i found a sigh claiming pagans/wiccans will crap in your church or holy grounds. It was a sight run by Baptist! and i have a christian familywho are generally kind no matter how judgmental they are. So if a person is supposed to love his neighbors as they love themselves...why are they so....hateful? I hate stereotypes....it's depressing...i simply...can't comprehend their hatred .

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      GADFLY 14 months ago

      Some moths ago an issue arose where student of a U.K. campus voted to put a ban on abusive free speech. The Establishment media are still carping on about this subject.

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      Alan 16 months ago from Tasmania

      The big question is: If those persons with hate claim to be christian, and think they have "God" on their side, what a weak and inconsequential "God" that must be!

      I mean, what are they afraid of? If their faith/belief is no stronger than that, then why not go and have some real, friendly, exciting, revealing, enlightening communion with people who only have love in their hearts?

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      Nightcat 16 months ago

      I loved this article! I started over on Squidoo, but the moment I switched over to HP I noticed a huge uptick in hate mail in my comments sections from Christians. I don't care what anyone believes, more power to them, but I don't appreciate having it forced on me, either. I'm never sure what they think hate will accomplish, either.

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      christboy88 17 months ago

      "They have individual personalities, stories, and yes, sometimes flaws, but that complexity is why we are drawn to them."

      Sounds like a genius philosophy to me.

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      Bla Blorgenstein 17 months ago

      I also get a lot of "You're a Pagan/Witch? How do you make a love spell?" LOL or the "Can you see the future?" It's hard to teach that Pagan is a non-specific umbrella term for any number of traditions and beliefs, and Witch is like a job title for a practitioner of magic/energy manipulation.

      I still can't get over the conversation I had last summer. I bumped in to my neighbour, and she happily decided to tell me about how she came to love Jesus (her sister had her read the Bible and told her to treat it like a storybook rather than analyze what she was reading). That was all well and good and everything. (I think people do better mentally when they have someone to please and something to look forward to.) but she started getting preachy about how other people were living their lives, while assuming she was talking to another Christian. I got uncomfortable with what she was saying, and I excused myself from the conversation. She got defensive and asked why I was leaving, while she pushed a little more, so I told her I read the Bible, and enjoyed going to Bible classes weekly after school, but I didn't agree with it anymore because my life experiences brought me down a different path. She apologized to me for my falling away from God, because in her eyes I had lost my way and was someone to be pitied. As if my own spiritual connection and belief system was without value or worthy of any respect or consideration and my life was that much worse for not being a Christian. I have a hard time being around that kind of arrogance and ignorance.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 19 months ago from London England

      If you take a wander around Olde London towne, you'd notice many buildings from the 18th and 19th centuries adorned with pagan sculptures and decorative symbology. This came about at a tyme when there were 300 churches in the city, some with stained glass windows depicting dragons, the 'green man' and a lady in armour with a sword. It was Oliver Cromwell in his role as the Lord Protector decreed that all vestiges of the pagan realm be destroyed and this included the 'holy thorn' bush at Glastonbury in Somerset. But sympathetic locals grafted a cutting back and it sprouted and budded twice a year in fact! Alas, in modern tymes it keeps getting vandalised by bigots however there are now several examples kept elsewhere.

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      Nivasi 20 months ago

      It simply amazes me of the ignorance in today's society..

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      Josephine 21 months ago from New England

      I'm not 100% sure I know what you're asking so correct me if need be, but would I have published this blog if the Christians saying and doing these things behaved more like Christ? The answer is yes, because many if not all of these things in and of themselves are not Christ-like things to say.

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      Josephine 21 months ago from New England

      No need to apologize, and thanks for your comment. :) Christians and pagans have more in common than not, I think. I look forward to a point when we'll all be able to relate to each other as people, and see past the labels to the souls within. Whether it's Jesus or Thor, I like to think that belief in a higher power should motivate us to treat one another with more kindness than we often do.

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      Josephine 21 months ago from New England

      We do, but I think because paganism is an umbrella term encompassing so many different faiths with many different values (another reason it's silly when people discriminate against us, since individual sects often have far more in common with Christianity than with other pagan religions,) they tend to be more grassroots movements and less associated with a particular deity or belief system. For example, in a local village that is mostly made up of new age and pagan businesses, there are frequent charity drives and environmental campaigns like the ones you've described, but the focus is more on doing the things than promoting a pagan agenda, so to speak.

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      Josephine 21 months ago from New England

      I agree that love is greater than the things that divide us, including religion or lack thereof. It certainly wasn't my intention to say that all Christians behave this way (as you said, I'm married to one who doesn't, so I know this quite well. :) But, just like any minority group, the fact that the majority also experiences discrimination doesn't negate the fact that minority groups face it in a systemized way. I hope I made it clear that if you are not the type who does this, this article isn't about you.

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      Josephine 21 months ago from New England

      I am not inclined to be saved by the one supposedly creating the situation from which I need to be saved, no. Come judgment day, I might have my regrets, but choosing to believe in a loving God instead of a capricious disciplinarian won't be one of them. :)

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      Josephine 21 months ago from New England

      Asking the devil for help? I could use help repairing my washing machine, is that the kind of errand he does? Just kidding. I am very familiar with that verse. I grew up Pentecostal and let me tell ya, never have I experienced more demonic activity and spiritual oppression than among that sect. And I very much believe in God, I just don't believe in man's spiritual divisions, AKA religion. Have a nice day!

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      Anurag 23 months ago

      I have read your post, and being a christian myself (who virtually believes many of the the accusations you have listed - I'm admitting it, knowing this will be unpopular), I want to ask you - Would this blog have been published had you seen more of Christ in all those Christians? (Instead of the condemnation and judgment.)

      (This was on my mind for a while, to just write to you.)

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      Alan 2 years ago from Tasmania

      Great Hub. Sorry I missed it all while it was happening... but at least I missed the c..p put out by K&T.

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      Ta-Iset 2 years ago

      I read the whole thread. I have something to say to Kiss and Tales or whatever the name is, and I welcome you to try and sway me from my path. I have watched documentaries, upon reading many books, forums, and so on. There is no evidence that Egypt had slaves, let alone Hebrew slaves. They paid for the labor they received from common folk. The bible is mistaken in this depiction of Ancient Egypt. I follow the path of Isis and Osiris, along with Horus. I love their love story, and as it is incestuous, I like to think of it another way. We are all brothers and sisters, so technically we are all marrying our brother or sister. I find this beautiful and not at all the way I'm sure you're going to take it.

      It's beautiful because to love one another as family, and to recognize that we are all family is what religion is based on. Love, love, love. I love my husband, he is a Christian, he doesn't go to church, he doesn't read the bible, but he was brought up on it. His mother is very religious as well. When she found out I was Pagan, she was upset. She had said many things that hurt me, like I was ruining my sons life by worshiping the devil, and casting spells... I had told her that I don't worship a devil. I worship Isis and Osiris, I told her to read about them. I didn't know that she would become even more angry lol she said the story was hideous because they are brother and sister.

      I also wanted to say that no one was attacking you KT, you started trying to convert people after the hub author had asked for whatever religion you are not to try and convert, because we are strong in our beliefs and it is just very annoying. You have been saying so many hateful things, and you can't even see that you have. You think that you're helping us find our way back to truth, when the truth is a lie. Your truth is a lie! You won't even try and research it. I'm not trying to offend if that's how it is coming off, I'm trying to educate.

      The bible has been proven to be stories made up from other religions. Some of the historical events like the flood is true, but most of the people who apparently lived no one can find any evidence of. I really would like for us all the coexist peacefully. I would like it if we could openly practice and worship the way people do in churches. I haven't been to a real pagan temple, they have them down in the states, but here in Canada I haven't come across any...

      One of my goals was to open up one, one day, I don't think I will be able to though.... I don't know how to run one, or finance one, or what I'd do when it is opened. I would like to find out how to go about it though and then maybe I can figure out how to open one... Currently I am still learning more about my path.

      I follow the Ancient Egyptian path, I'm trying to learn as much as I possibly can about them, and their culture, religion, and everything I can get my hands on. I find it fascinating and beautiful in all regards. I would like to hear more from LG, I find you very fascinating as well, and I love learning about other paths and religions.

      Until there is a reply, blessed be and love and light :)

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      DW Davis 2 years ago from Eastern NC

      I am a Catholic Christian but I very much believe in the type of evangelism Jesus taught (at least the way I see it). Let the way you live your life be your testimony. If someone asks you why you live as you do, offer to tell them about your faith. If they don't want to listen, let it be. Metaphorically beating them over the head with your faith doesn't get you anywhere except asked to leave.

      I have known a handful of Pagan's and Wicca who were open about their practice and they were all respectful, hardworking, people; considerate and friendly towards others. One was a girl I dated, another was a dear colleague I used to work with. When someone tries to tell me that all Pagans, Wicca, and Witches are bad I simply point out that they should learn about what they're talking about before making such statements.

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      tudor109 2 years ago

      Thank you for posting this.

      Reading it reminded me of an old high school friend who had been wiccan and then converted back to Christianity. It kind of made me sad because she'd never tell me the truth about Wicca after that, just a bunch of slurs against this community that had welcomed her.

      I've always been interested in religions and I enjoyed reading this hub very much. Thank you!

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      Liz Elias 2 years ago from Oakley, CA

      Merry meet!

      This was a well-done and well-thought-out piece. You stated your case calmly and rationally.

      I do not understand the rash of comments trying to rebut everything you carefully explained. I can only infer that those people prefer to remain uneducated, for the actual truth scares them.

      When you consider the bloody history of Christianity (and a few other mainstream religions, with their "convert or be killed" M.O.), it seems a bit like the case of the pot calling the kettle black.

      As an atheist following the generic Pagan path, I understand your feelings well. I'm what one person described as a "solitary eclectic." My main mantra is "Do as ye will, nay harm ye none," which is a very similar phrasing to the saying you gave from the Wiccan Rede.

      Nature's creations are my soul's temple; not deities.

      I have no problem with anyone's religion. I only have a problem when they want to force it down my throat. I don't do that to others, and I expect the same courtesy in return.

      Voted up, interesting, useful, awesome, shared and pinned.

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      ttbpae16 2 years ago

      I don't know how much right or authority I have to say this, but I would like to take it upon myself to deeply apologize to those who have suffered at the hands of those who call themselves Christians and have no tolerance for us.

      I myself am a practicing Christian, and I like to think of myself as respectful enough of other religions and beliefs; compassion, love, and peace are what Jesus professed after all. I truly hope soon you will be able to express yourself freely in your beliefs; whatever they may be, I am sure a pure and earnest heart is always valued in the Lord's eyes.

      Very interesting hub, by the way. Hope no one minds me adding my two cents. And I mean no offense when I say, God bless.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 2 years ago from London England

      At risk of contradicting myself in previous comments i do admit that i might have expressed myself in a different way. Let us hope we can keep this thread going a little longer.

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      social thoughts 2 years ago from New Jersey

      This is a very well-written article! I have experienced these, too. I had never considered your point in #8 about Christians "cursing us." That is brilliant! Thank you for sharing! Was that something you figured out on your own or did someone else bring that to your attention? :)

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      Cadence W 2 years ago

      Sorry for the double post, either way glad that the madness is over.

      Up until March of last year I was a Christian but things stopped making sense and I felt that this wasn't the religion for me at all. So I did some reading about Paganism and Wicca, read about spell work, various deities and such. Since then I call myself a polytheistic Eclectic Pagan and my life has gotten a little better, I mean I still feel hurt and depressed at times but who doesn't? Thankfully my parents are understanding folks, they respect my beliefs but I just don't practice in front of them. But I haven't faced too much flack for my beliefs but I've gotten the old "Can you hex my cheating ex-wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend?" nonsense and the obligatory "You will burn in Hell." But oh well can't please everyone.

      I'm not perfect, in my short 19 years of life I've made mistakes, lied, hell I've even violated the rede once but I'm making peace with myself and vow to never mess up again. Even though sometimes I just can't tolerate fools and end up going off on someone who bugs me. But for me I just feel better physically and spiritually now and I strive to continue my currant path.

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      Cadence W 2 years ago

      KT sounds about as genuine as a snake bite.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 2 years ago from London England

      The coven nearest to where i live perform all ritual stark naked with the exception of the High Priestess who is garbed in traditional cloak with a hood attached. In my novellete 'Cauldron of souls' i wrote about Merkah a High Priestess in the Atlantean tradition. Rollo her slave ceremonialy castrates himself to prove his loyalty to Merkah. Together they travel through time on a series of adventures including to Camelot in the times of King Arthur and the knights of the Round table. In more recent writings i have created an 'all female' secret society called the Amazonnian Order of the Labyris comprising women from every 'walk of life' who set oput with goals to achieve.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 2 years ago from London England

      Quite right! Costs nothing for good manners.

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      Gadfly 2 years ago from Olde London Towne

      Greetings my little darklings

      The golden rule reads, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I'll tell you the silver rule next and then possibly the copper rule.

      sweet dreams

      the gadfly

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      SFIAOgirl021 2 years ago

      I actually want to comment my responses to each of the 10 things because I've been studying Wicca for almost 7 months now (hoping to finish my year and a day studies when it's time I'm studying ALOT of books) but if I capitalize the G in God it's because I believe one should show respect for other religions even if they don't do it back well here goes.... 1. As for this question I'd have to say I try my best not to hate anyone I have some ppl that I very (+50 verys) much so dislike (with good reason) but I don't actually hate them and I'll even attempt to be nice to them even though they'll always stab me in the back for it later I think it's wrong to hate because that is what brews all the hate in the world 2. I agree with what you say here I've read through the Bible once completely and several other books many times before seeing as I was raised with Christians I can quote stories and scriptures better then alot of ppl I'm no expert of course but I know the Bible I've read it and studied it and it's just not for me I hate when ppl r like "if u just read this u'll get close to God again" or whatever something to that effect I find it soo annoying I'm sry but I do because all I want to say to them is I've read it and I know it I know stories even ppl who r Christians have to think a sec before they remember I'm not reading it anymore just go away I don't want to be rude to them though so I'll end up saying "no thanks" and leaving 3. I think this is one of the few that offends me the most I've tried being a "good Christian" and once that high I kept getting wore off after I went back home from whatever retreat or service I went to I'd be right back where I started and kicking myself for getting swept away again I don't want a religion where I'll get this high feeling like I'm flying only to crash back down the second the service is over I want a religion that I can get involved in I have to study and learn and it feels right to me I've spent my whole life searching for it and it'll just fit me like a puzzle piece well I'm glad to say I think I've found what I'm looking for and I'm sry but Christianity just ain't it ppl I'm leaning towards Wicca (always felt drawn to it) 4. Since I've discovered Wiccans don't really believe in the devil this point just makes me want to laugh if someone brings it up lol! 5. I agree here is well light and darkness is a balance yes I think it's possible that one side will rear it's head and u'll go one way strongly for alil bit but over all I think everyone in existence has a balance of light and dark in us I just see it as the yin yang symbol when I think of it 6. This is another one that makes me upset ppl shouldn't judge what they don't know it's just a saying that I picked up somewhere and I believe in it if u don't understand something I don't believe u should have any right to judge it because u r judging something u r ignorant about and the whole concept is just made stupid when u try judging that about sums my feelings (the short version) for this number 7. I agree with this one it's not a phase it's a lifestyle true faith isn't a phase it's who we r and what we believe and there's no changing it it's like being gay or straight or other or a man or woman it's who we r and that isn't changing ppl 8. As for this I'd be hilarious to scare somebody just alil saying "I'm gonna curse u" and then do that whoooooo thing and wiggle my fingers at them but that'd be wrong and just plain mean even though I'd lmao at it I'd never actually say that to somebody although I know somebody who did something similar it was my mom and Jehovah's Witnesses kept coming to our door and my mom is Catholic (yeah ik got it rough in my house although she's pretty understanding my mom's awesome but anyways) one day she answered the door and the JW did their lil talk or whatever and she's like "I'm not interested in anything u have to say plzz leave and never come back" and even said it politely but the lady wouldn't shut it so my mom wiggled her fingers at the lady and said and I quote "I'm Catholic whooooo" and that woman ran outta there like she was on fire my mom was like "I'm sooo going to hell for that but it was too good to pass up" I'd never actually do that to somebody because of the Wiccan rede though if I cursed someone I'd have too much Karma coming back at me and I don't want that! 9. I acknowledge other religions and respect others beliefs to call what I believe silly and etc, is just disrespectful 10. with my big sarcasmness I have going on I'd tell them "darn u've figured out my plan" and then laugh well I probably wouldn't but I'd want to for like a half second but most likely I'd stay serious and say no because Wiccans/pagans/witches we all look and act like normal ppl and I don't appreciate ur stereotyping and then I'd probably just walk away

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      OdinsRaven 2 years ago from Nova Scotia

      If Kristjins want to whine at heathens about the virtue of their pale Christ and an alien faith that invaded the lands of our ancestors from the middle east I say let them. All one needs to do is take a casual stroll through history and affirm they are clearly a faith who spread based on deception, dishonor, dysfunction and good old fashioned ethnic cleansing. If they don't like to be judged based on historical truth, research and analytical thinking perhaps they should practice a little modern tolerance and not hassle us.

      Words are weapons and the Hovamol teaches us never to leave home with out our weapons ready.

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      RavynBloodoath 2 years ago from Burien, Washington

      I am severely late to the tail-gate on this one. I wish I would have seen this months ago! I am surprised no one brought up Pharisees to the "preachers" here. It really drives me CRAZY when "Christians" start inflammatory comments and then do the backstroke. Many of the Christians that post those kind of comments will not listen to reason. They seem to feel that attacking our beliefs is perfectly okay, but scream persecution when we question them.

      Many do not take into account that a great many of us come from devout Christian backgrounds. Many of us are also "seekers" and seek knowledge in various subjects before we turn on the mouth spigot. Paganism to me is a calling back to Nature. To my Mother and my Father. To the Earth that needs its caretakers! My relationship with the Lord and Lady lifted me out of serious depression. Has it cured all my ills? Naw, most of that is up to me. Do I seek salvation in some afterlife? No. That is not my end purpose in this world! Am I good to get cosmic kudos? No. I do good things and help people because that is what feels right and just to me.

      I will not say all Christians are bad, because they aren't. I will say, in my experience, there are a growing number of zealots and extremists that we should watch carefully. They tend to pass on their hate like a plague. I have seen wonderful Christians turn (many were friends and family). I will keep my faith in what I know to be right for me and let those of other faiths believe as they wish. As long as they do not try to hurt me, my family, or my community I will be a duck and let it roll off my back. *QUACK QUACK*

      Love y'all!!!

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 2 years ago from London England

      Thank you very much indeed for my reinstatement on these rather illuminating pages. It is quite lonely out in the wilderness these past few months. I have been 'going over' all of my previous posts and must say that i have made some comment i would have misgivings over and also others which make me think 'Oh! Did i say that?

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 2 years ago from London England

      Actually i never heard the term 'pagan' used in my formative years until we learned in school that the barbarian tribes of antiquity were in fact pagans. However the term 'heathen' was used to describe a non believer and this was also used as a description for naughty boys. Nowadays of course we have a pagan federation and the belief in is accepted by courts of law. Hope this has been illuminating to some.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 2 years ago from London England

      merrie we meet

      many blessings to all kindred spirits

      in light

      limpet

      slave to the faery queene

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      Gadfly 2 years ago from Olde London Towne

      Greetings my little Darklings!

      The ultimate authority on this topic i believe would be Doctor Christina Oakley-Harrington who is a well respected identity in the Pagan community. In her autobiography Christina asserts the principles of silence, secrecy and satyre.

      see you in some secret place soon!

      the gadfly

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      SFIAOgirl021 2 years ago

      i have made an account now i hope the author approves my earlier guest comments and i do apologize if i have said anything offensive that isn't my intention for looking into these Wiccan articles i come to read and learn and share thoughts and opinions in kindness i don't wish to bash others or be rude

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      SFIAOgirl021 2 years ago

      and for those who want to say my description of abuse was too logical to be true i apologize if it sounded that way but what happened to me is real being logical and flat i guess is the only way i know how to talk about it because if i get too involved in talking deeply about it it harms my mental stability and i've worked for years to get it built up and i'm not going to let it fall now and yes i am happy to say i am now mentally stable i'm not doing any of that harmful stuff anymore but as far as what i believe i'm being open minded and exploring to find out what it is i believe

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      Jean DAndrea 2 years ago from Victoria, Australia

      Very interesting and well written hub. As a Pagan, I can relate to much of this. On one occasion a lady near to me in a car park saw my pentagram, and informed me that I was in danger, and that she'd pray for me. Wasn't sure whether to be insulted or amused, so just said "Thankyou".

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      Gadfly 2 years ago from Olde London Towne

      Greetings my little Darklings!

      sticks and stones may break my bones

      but cheek will never hurt me.

      sweet dreams

      gadfly

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      Gadfly 2 years ago from Olde London Towne

      Greetings my liitle Darklings!

      Having just returned from Glastonbury on one of my frequent sojurns, it was extremely sad to see how points of interest are rapidly becoming theme parks and how New Age genre is heavily corporatised.

      Trust no one

      the gadfly

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      DarkeyedAngel 2 years ago

      In conclusion with my previous post, I was curious if Wiccans or Pagans or people of the Old and yes first organized religion have charity groups the way Christians and other religions do? I have yet to see any or know of so if you do, could you please tell me and if you don't maybe you should start one. There are many out there in Christ's name that do good and help and perhaps to help or end the stigma of withcraft and devils and all that hoopla a charity could show you are good and are doing good. Afterall witches say you can do whatever you want as long as no harm comes from it. Maybe something with nature, harvest fest and meals for the needy, nature preservation, work for the sick and injured, natural homeopathic help. Just a few ideas...it could turn out for the better. For all.

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      DarkeyedAngel 2 years ago

      I am a Christian and do not appreciate being lumped into your criticism and rhetoric that we all are so mean and against you. I fully honour Christ and may very well someday have to take the sword for him for which I will do but I also have studied other religions and Pagans, various types all over the world, and realize that each religion, no matter, all have different starts, centers, but they have the same end. We all want good for us and family and the world and to be reborn in the beauty of the afterlife. With that I go about smiling to people, even if they don't smile back. I try to be half cup full, even when you watch news of planes going into buildings. I don't sit around hunting witches, cursing them out, where would one find the time anyway lol. I studied and even tho I don't find it for me and see many doing at least many I know, just for kicks, no sincerity involved, there are many things I do find interesting and the love of nature is big for me. I embrace that regardless. Maybe you come across ignorant people, who doesn't, I get it as a Christian too esp from atheists so I know how one feels, but there are more good people than bad, and if you look well enough you will find them. Please do not assume because one Christian says something, it stands for all of us just like when one witch does something. Hate only breeds hate and we have way too much of that now. I was always taught on the principles that Jesus loves, forgives, and wants the best for people. Afterall you love a Christian and he loves you, so love can conquer all. Whether you have a crucifix or a pentagram.

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      Gadfly 2 years ago from Olde London Towne

      Greetings my little Darklings!

      At one stage of my life journey i was known as 'fungus face' which was given to me by the daughters of a Lady whose flat i was renting at the tyme. I was paying less rent on the understanding that i perform chores for her at her house. When she discovered my books by Dion Fortune and Maxine Sanders she demanded to know "What is that all about?"

      Then she began calling me that terrible name up until the tyme i had to leave.

      sweet dreams

      the gadfly

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      Gadfly 2 years ago from Olde London Towne

      Greetings my little Darklings

      In the past the gratuitous critics would say 'Wendy the wyche' or a character from the Addams family but now the patronising term is 'Harry Potter'!

      sweet dreams

      the gadfly

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      Gadfly 2 years ago from Olde London Towne

      Greetings my little Darklings

      There has always been some sort of disparaging remark directed at those of us who practice 'the craft', by the 'unknowing'! Getting us confused with sleight of hand conjurors, magicians to entertain children etc. Now it is "Oh so you are into Harry Potter then!"

      Sweet dreams

      the gadfly

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      Baptist 2 years ago

      Yes The Bible Existed over 2000 YEARS AGO and all other religions books existed just maybe 50-1000 years ago so what do you believe the new or the old

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      Baptist 2 years ago

      LG I hope you repent that is also not right to be married to someone with different beliefs Same thing you just want what you want

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      Baptist 2 years ago

      Jesus Saved Us but you do not want to accept His gift of salvation You want to do whatever you want to do but Judgement Day Will come just remember that

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      Baptist 2 years ago

      Im A Baptist And What Your Doing Is Against God. But You Dont believe in God. When you do witch craft your Asking the devil for help But you dont Know it But All you need to do is in this Bible verse and Repent this sin that you are doing: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. If you want to read more verses just go to Walmart or any other stores and buy a KJV Bible I hope you have a great day

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 2 years ago from London England

      I could hardly define the temple of mithras as 'pagan' after all it was introduced to this country by a supposedly advanced civilzation for it's time.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      merrie we meet

      i've delighted in the Lady's name Guinevere (and the derivitive name of) since i first enjoyed tales of King Arthur and the Knights of the round table. My favourite actress to play the role of Queen Guinevere has to be Vanessa Redgrave who was Shakespearian trained method although Hollywood actress Rhonda Flemming was quite good in an alternative version.

      many blessings to all kindred spirits

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      I like that analogy. Hey Ollie, I am glad that you are back!!

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Oh I'm sure it will, but at least that person will not be part of the conversation. You can only extend so many olive branches while the other person whittles spears out of them before it's time to quit, LOL.

      And thank you, your comments are amazing as well!

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Things got sorted out, it looks like! Yay! Peace for now! I'm sure something like this will come up again soon, though.

      ModernAlchemyst,

      Thanks for the hub. You're amazing!

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      I agree, especially since I'm transgender and deal with enough of that in face-to-face interactions. :/ Some of the comments were much worse than they looked at first glance. This person's comments will NOT be showing up here again.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      I have no problem with those who don't agree with me. At least half of my friends and family members are Christians. We have absolutely no trouble getting along, because we are all civil to one another, consider the other points made, and phrase things in a way that is easy to understand. You do not.

      I think you're confusing the right to disagree and argue with the right to attack and be belligerent. There are plenty of people who have disagreed with me strongly, even attacked me personally, and I haven't deleted their comments. I only deleted your comments where you used slurs and attacked others. I'm simply tired of dealing with someone who doesn't understand that communication is a two way street. We've all answered your questions, given you resources, and explained things to you numerous times. You ignore them and move on to the next thing.

      You can only expect people to waste their time trying to have a conversation with you for so long before they realize that you are only interested in preaching, not listening or productive debating. You expect us to take your arguments seriously when you provide no evidence yourself and don't even bother to respond to our points. It makes it seem as though your beliefs are so fragile that you can't even respond to counter arguments. I absolutely do not expect everyone to comment on my Hubs because they agree (in fact, I'm hoping for some intelligent debate from different perspectives), but I do expect them to do so in a civilized, educated and goodnatured way.

      I wish you the best and would be happy to have you back in my comments section if we can disagree productively and civilly in the future. I don't want an aggressive, homophobic atmosphere on my page and I don't have time to continue going back and forth with you, so this is my last reply and I'll be deleting comments if they are inflammatory.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      More of the same venom I see. OK as soon as you stop her spit and vinegar, maybe I will come back here. Name calling and slander and slurs are not debate and discussion producers. They just turn people away.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      That is a great problem here on your hub post. You think ,you think a lot of things that do not give truth to my statements. You are the bias one , but you must remember ! You posted the hub, you did not say who reply, once you post a hub you open the subject to the public. That means those that think like you and who do not , if you expected everyone to agree with your subject then you are not being realistic. You are telling people you have no right to commit different from my belief. And since I have been giving my heart of truth you are attacking my right . But you should notice hub pages are allowing the thread in all fairness. They have reply buttons through out the whole commit process. As spoken before if I violated any ones rights I would have been banned. This is all based on what you think . That is not reliable.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      LG, Beautifully said. I gave information on the actual view that most Jewish rabbis hold on Satan as well and she didn't comment, nor will she ever read them, I'm sure. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, and it's the same with knowledge. When you cling desperately to something like a belief, you're can't open your hand to grasp new truth, and it hardens people spiritually, sadly enough.

      Needless to say I'll be moderating the comments much more closely. I hope Ollie and others will feel comfortable to come back if they want, I never want this to be an uncomfortable space for anyone who wants a genuine discussion. ): Thank you LG and everyone else who has contributed thoughtful responses. Atheist, Agnostic. Christian, Pagan, even if we disagree with one another on serious topics, I hope we can still connect as people without name calling, slurs and unnecessary judgment.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      K&T Okay, your messages are very hard to understand. I'm assuming you just type while upset, but I think part of the problem here is that you post largely unintelligible comments, sprinkled with inflammatory terms and accusations, and then move on to the next goal post. I think you're trying to say that the pentagram is the "official symbol" of all pagans because you saw it on the Wikipedia page for Wicca. Because I don't even know how to begin to unravel that logical knot, I'm just going to explain that not all witches are Wiccans (as I did quite clearly in my Hub) and leave it at that. Gemology aside.

      This is really a continuing pattern since you've started posting on my stuff. You post random Bible verses, then when someone calls you out on it you backpedal and imply you're not a Christian, then continue attacking paganism with Biblical references, then move onto another topic when someone refutes you and you don't have an argument. Rinse and repeat. It's exhausting, you're poisoning my comments thread, and you haven't actually responded to a single point that anyone here has made, from what I can see. I tolerated it before the homophobic slurs, because I thought you might genuinely be seeking information, but it's obvious you're not. Please go elsewhere, or I'm just going to delete your comments.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      I gave a website for what the Pentagram/STAR OF DAVID, really means and someone whom thinks they know everything and bashes others told me that they would not read anything that I had to say about the subject because....and she goes on and on. So let it be....it will come back to her. Like I said it is in the thoughts and the emotions put behind those thoughts that will have consequences that WILL come back in just that way. Be careful with your thoughts and your wishes and your words....at least that is what Jesus said in that bible they use as a sword.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      LG, That's awesome and you two certainly sound like an interesting match! It's always cool to hear about other happy interfaith couples. It's definitely not for everyone, but if you can get past the difference, I think being an interfaith couple does wonders in terms of spiritual maturity. I'm glad you're able to use your writings to clear up the misconceptions that abound with any organization like that. The media sensationalizes things a lot, I'm sure. I'd love to read your writings on the subject!

      And LOL, we really are all the same in the important ways, when you get down to it. I agree with you, that isn't what the Bible teaches at all. That's what's scary about mainstream Christianity, how far it is from its roots, which are all about reason, temperance and withholding judgment. As I saw in college, sometimes the people with their nose closest to the Book are the ones that miss the big picture the most.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Your sign is written in the Wikipedia , the online internet sources that people can read for themelf. How can you tell a person as and example you are not wearing a ring because it does not have a diamond in the setting. You could have an opal, but does the meaning of the ring change .it is still a ring. No matter what jewel is attached to it. I sent a picture of a Symbol of satan and a picture of the Wicca , your supporter said thank you because they both look the same. They did not seperate with a difference of meanings like you are, but they recognize both your symbol.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      modernalchemyst Wow I am married to a devout Roman Catholic and we also make it work. We don't judge each other, never have and never will. We love each other for who we are, not for who or what we believe is best for the other. He goes to church and is involved with the Knights of Columbus and believe me that organization is thought to be all kinds of evil things and such. I tend to like it because they help the community. I wrote a hub about those men and what they do and have cleared up lots of misconceptions of that. Anyway we are all people, with the same needs and desires and we all have to eat and drink and poop and work no matter what one believes...we all do these things. Lots of people are misinformed and some are arrogant in that they are told that only they know the truth so they must bash others. That is not what the bible teaches....sorry to say.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      I haven't even had the time to read all your volatile comments, just to delete the slurs, so I'll withold commenting on that aspect. If people can read, then you can spell out the full word. You don't get to decide what is and isn't a slur. Even if you didn't know it was a slur at first, you've been educated and don't have an excuse anymore.

      I've been pretty patient with you so far, as I think OT, LG, Spellbound and many others have as well, but unless you can pull yourself together, stop using slurs, stop making excuses for using slurs, and add something non-accusatory to the conversation, I don't think there is a place for you on my Hub. I want there to be civil discussion between Christians and pagans, and I think your comments are an unfair representation of Christianity.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      When you talk nonstop about the Bible, it's not a huge stretch... But since you view that as a misinformed judgment, I'm sure you'll be willing to acknowledge that your own judgment that the pentagram is a sign all witches use is misinformed as well.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      I just noticed, after approving them all I deleted a few problematic comments I was honestly surprised by. /: I'm sorry about that, everyone. These things escalate. I hate that Christian + Pagan is instantly a hot water topic, because I know it doesn't have to be. I mean, I'm married to a devout Episcopalian and we make it work, and learn and grow with each other spiritually. It's just a shame the internet brings out the toxicity in people.

      I try not to delete the comments from aggressive posters coming on here and spewing unrelated verses and accusations, because I don't like censorship and I feel like it just gives them a victim complex. I was hoping to facilitate a dialog with this Hub, but I think the super preachy and volatile comments are actually impeding the civil discussion that I know many of us, Christian, Pagan and otherwise, want to have.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You are the one making it that way you are making it a slur by bringing it up and said used it that way. I mention snap a site where children have been abused because of that situation. You turn that on me as though I am the cause of this problem. People can read . If I had done so we would not be talking now Hubpages would have banned me. You do as you wish but lying on people does not make you a reliable person of truth.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      modernalchemyst well some of us got tired of name calling and slander and left. I took a break until you showed up.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      The truth is that is a slur that has been shouted while innocent people are being killed for being gay. Just as I would not tolerate comments using racial slurs, I will delete comments using homophobic slurs. I'm disappointed that you aren't better than that. I took you for someone with differing opinions yes, but not for a bigot.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Also you are giving me an example of a cross you think I believe in. I do not believe in a cross of any religion. Again your own judgement is misinformed .

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You can delete my comit if you wish . But the word I used was the part of the name I meant. It took to much space to write the whole word. That is your right not like my choice of words or statement. The truth is that is what it is.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Lol I run three other websites and just moved so I've been MIA and came back the other day to 116 comments. Thanks to you, Ollie and Spellbound for holding down the fort and keeping the discussion moving!

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      K&T, the pentagram is a five-pointed star regardless of direction in most traditions. Pointing down is simply used to represent the second degree of initiation into Wicca. (My Wiccan friends can correct me on this if I'm misspeaking. :) But it absolutely does not have anything to do with Satan. Satanists, many of whom don't even believe in a literal Satan and are just spiritual atheists, added the Baphomet on top of that symbol and turned it into a different symbol. You know, like how your cross symbols aren't Satanic just because their inverted form is? Also, the horned god is often believed to be Pan, but he is not Satan.

      Satan, or HaSatan as he is known in the Jewish Scriptures, the actual basis for your religion, is not what Christianity has made him out to be. The Christian canon is a distortion of the true Jewish Scriptures in many, many ways, not least of all their depiction of Satan. HaSatan is neither a god, nor a devil. He is an angel in the Jewish mythology who serves God faithfully and is a blessing to mankind. In Job 2:1, he is called "among the sons of God." Originally, God created both evil and good, and HaSatan enforced His divine will by imposing obstacles in the path of God's children, making the choice between following God and doing what they wanted a difficult one. This added meaning to the act of obedience. Christians took that and distorted it into "He makes things hard by tempting people, he must be evil and hate God!" Why do you think Satan had access to heaven and an audience with God in the story of Job? Please, please educate yourself on your own religion and the parent religion it came from before you start trying to educate people of religions you have absolutely no idea about.

      Then again, maybe Satan does hate Christians by now after all these years of bad press and slander. Either way, it has nothing to do with pagans.

      http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-2566/th...

      http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-s...

      http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/jewish...

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      I've never heard of a practitioner of any type of genuine practitioner practicing on the street. (Funnily enough I did some stage magic in my younger days, but that was when I was a Christian, lol) Aside from spreading the message that we're not all crazy people and just want to be left alone to practice in peace, most of us don't want media attention at all. :) Most spells provide some benefit to the spiritual, social or financial life of the practitioner or someone else, so when they work it's not exactly something you'd televise. "Bob just got that promotion! Better call CNN!" That doesn't stop movie and television directors from researching the surface of our traditions and spitting it back out into pretty silly representations, though.

      As for proof of witchcraft, voodoo and magic the answer is yes and no. I come from a neuroscience background, so I limit my use of the word proof to things that can be mathematically proven. Anything else is just compounding evidence and increasing the likelihood that something really is having an effect for one reason or another. In that sense, there is quite a bit of evidence for the reality of supernatural phenomenon, from psychics to prayer and witchcraft. That only comes from practitioners who are willing to be tested and retested, though.

      A lot of traditions are far more secretive and proof or the belief of others in their craft is the last thing they want. In fact, the second you give away the path secrets or provide proof to someone outside, you're out. The pagan world is so varied with hundreds if not thousands of religions. I can't speak for all witches, and I can't even speak for all witches who practice what I do, but I think those who are meant to come to us will without us having to proselytize as other religions do. The point is in the personal spiritual benefit of the practice and connecting with nature, not in building a following, gaining media attention or getting tax breaks from the government. Basically, we're practicing for ourselves and most of us don't feel the need to prove anything, so if others don't believe in it, that's cool. :)

      Scripture-wise, some religions that involve the use of witchcraft do have ancient scriptures, others do not. Voodoo is an ascriptural religion, while Thelemites hold to the Book of the Law. We're so widely varied, it just depends.

      Thank you for your well-formed questions, and I hope I answered to your satisfaction. If not, feel free to ask more! :)

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      Be careful of your truth because it may not be the truth at all. Do not take things at face value in things such as religion. Clergy are trained to keep you in the dark. Know the truth before you speak it from someone else: My hub about those who love to use that bible and who think and swear that it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Teaching-Out-of-the-Bible-Really

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Kiss and Tales, I have allowed you to comment this far because I don't believe in silencing opposition. However, if you continue to use words such as "homo," I will be deleting your comments. Please stay civil and respectful.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      modernalchemyst I was wondering if you were going to show up in your own comments. I am glad that you wrote this piece and that many here have shown their true colors. I wish Ollie would come back though.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      It's good to have opinions about things, Kash. You're doing a good job! Next time try making them coherent. :)

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      It's okay Ollie Trollie, Kash is one of those people who I feel more pity for than anyone else in this world because one day he will discover that he hates the very Jesus he thinks he built his life around. I guarantee you and I will have far more in common with the actual Jesus than he and his bigoted friends ever could.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Everybody knows LG love hurts. I never trade the truth for a lie to get along with no one , the truth vexes when it is something you do not want to hear. I could just say you are right about everything , and be passive. No their is danger here !and I will speak the truth.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Yes, and that was GREAT! I am sorry I couldn't view the videos right now but I am sure they are wonderful. And yes, that last paragraph sums it all up nicely. *wink* great job! The secrets buried under that hill are intended to stay that way and they get very upset over those who dig, especially if they dig for truth.

      I am actually very relieved to hear that you and Ollie are on good terms. Very young, and quite wounded. Hopefully what is learned from you will help ease some of that pain. It takes a very long time to heal...if it ever fully does.

      Lol @ "their book as a weapon"...oh how very true it is. I've become pretty skilled over the years at the artful dodging of the book weapon.

      As far as the avatars, I am new here and pay them absolutely no attention, lol. But I have been around on the internet in general to know that its a wonderful place for people to pretend to be whatever they want, and whats true is more often hidden than not.

      I am who I am and people can accept that or not. I guess that is their choice. Sure, I can have quite the temper and quite a sharp tongue all of my own. I'm a redhead what can I say? And above all, I am human and not above admitting that. Have I been wrong? Numerous times. Have I made mistakes...yep. And I am completely okay with that. Some people aren't. And thats just the way it goes. The sad part is, that it doesn't have to be that way at all.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      And to you I never gave you what my faith is , I never asked any of you to come and join or even gave you a name of my religious or believe. It boils down to the truth ,anybody can do what is right it does not take a name if truth in religion to make a good decision . It is like a hot dog most people know you are not swallow it whole or you will choke. That is the right and wrong way of safety. That goes with other things as well ,can you get mad with some one who cares enough to say becareful you can choke on that hot dog if you eat it wrong. or would you just sit and watch a kid gulp it down with out warning because you do not care. You are attacking me because I care. You are in a dark world that is dangerous and has ended in death, rather you like what is said or not . I can not and really know I can stop what you are doing that is your right. But I can tell the truth of the outcome which you do not like.

      Again the symbol is still a image of satan no mater what title you put on it. And it draws demons.fallen angels. That is why people are going through ungodly and disgusting things in their families. That is why you have killings in our schools, and kids killing parents, because the demons are connected to your symbols. You welcome them.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      K&T so YOUR experience is better than mine making you Holier Than Thou? What truth do you hold that I do not and others do not becasue you just set yourself up on a pedestal and you know what I tell people that do that.....be care how high you put yourself because you will fall and to the people below WATCH OUT!

      When you talk to someone in comment PLEASE say who you are referring too. I told Ollie that I will not respond to you anymore I broke my word but this will be the last time that I respond to you.

      Where is the LOVE in your words? I have found that to be a very difficult thing for those who use the Bible as a sword to prove themselves more righteous than others. I tell you why in my hub.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You are correct LG did ,and that part statement goes to her, the rest is to you.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      And yes I had a good reason now that I reread that post. Because her statements were not true based on my experience. You judge and bring another post of conversation and not the whole truth of who said what . Makes you not a reliable person of truth.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Lol, I never made a reference to your gender at all. Why? Because your gender is irrelevant.

      The only statements anyone made to you were in response to what YOU had said, and in truth, if those words to you were not of a kind nature then its more than likely the result of you having offended someone, knowingly or otherwise. You take tremendous offense to anyone who states that your beliefs are far from "the truth", yet you equally offend with your own words in your accusations of others. You get back exactly what you send out...you sent out insults and they were returned unto you.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      Spellbound, The last paragraph says it all and it will interest you and all the links too. Ollie and I exchanged e-mails and we are cool now. Oh and words DO hurt....but then again they KNOW this and use their book as some sort of weapon, which that was NOT it's original intention....or was it? Some believe blindly and believe everything they are told.

      The other truth here is that some people will use different avatars then who they really are. I do not trust the avatars here or anywhere else. I do not believe blindly like that.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You pick my statements and not the statements people have made to me that caused me to give that answer does not make you a fair person to judge this subject at all ,especially some one who can not tell a man from a women even from a posted picture . I did not make my commit to you.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      LG that looks like a good hub. I promise I will read it thoroughly.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      So what ever religion you have found is not that one ,because God is love. Jesus is love, Satan is a liar, you are not the first two,

      K&T, these words are also yours....another one of your comments to another pagan....earlier on in this discussion.

      Shall I continue, or have you seen enough of your own words to satisfy how ugly they truly are? Just because someone's beliefs differ from your own does not qualify them as "evil" in any aspect. And I don't really care what book you dug out of the sand says about it.

      I am not exactly sure what your issue is with any of this, and I really do not care, aside from how you have treated people here, most especially OT who is young, and very wounded. All your words did was dig deep into that wound and torture someone who did nothing wrong to you.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      I Am Told That I Am Teaching Out of the Bible, Really? http://ladyguinevere.hubpages.com/hub/Teaching-Out...

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      I did say you practice his ways, but I did not call you Satan directly , it is like some one would say you are like your father. You act like him .that does not mean you are him.

      You practice his ways is what I mean. Being him is impossible .

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Kiss andTales 46 hours ago Level 3 Commenter

      Satan ways are what you practice.

      A person becomes what they practice...so yes, those are your own words. Truth depends largely upon perception. A narrow mind has an even more narrow perception of "truth".

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      That is another wrong statement you have made. I never said you was satan. See that is the problem here people use words to misrepresent people who speak truth that you disagree with. So I will end my statments to you. Lying and saying people say things they did not say does not make you look right at all. Try telling the truth you will be happy you did.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      OT, I think you misunderstood LG's intentions. In what little she posted here she revealed quite a lot. LG isn't seeking to preach to you, or to convert you my dear. What she is doing is not only being very honest, she is also being quite sincere. She is also a lady who has "done her homework" so to speak. And that didn't come easily for her. But in all that she has said here, what she is telling you is actually correct. And she isn't telling you this for any reason other than trying to help you heal from something that has been very painful to you. LG has been down a very bumpy road. Anyone seeking the actual teachings of "Christ" has been. And they have faced a lot of adversity in that quest, probably more so than you realize.

      LG is absolutely correct when she says that Jesus taught that every aspect of divinity exists, and resides, within YOU.

      LG, do not feel alone there. K&T said I was Satan too. Paulean fear is still alive and kicking and inflicting as much pain as it can. I've been down the same long and bumpy road that you have and have come to the same conclusion. God, divinity, (recognize it as you will) all exist within ourselves, every bit of it..both good and bad. So, no, in all of that its extremely difficult to say that you are any single religion, because in all truth you are not..because there is no single religion that fits that theology. And I do truly understand where you are coming from, because well, I am kind of sitting next to you in the same boat. The actual teachings of Jesus are so different from what is viewed as "christianity" that they are literally worlds apart. I agree, I don't think he was poor either. He was too well educated in other belief systems and cultures to have not traveled to learn them. Yes, I do also believe he was married, and I do believe his wife was completely villainized along with any other powerful woman, especially any who followed those teachings...teachings that did not place women under the feet of men. Its really no big mystery as to why the word "witch" was, and still is, most commonly associated with a woman. Even now, even in cartoon drawings of the "witch", they are always that of some ugly woman. Why? It plays on a woman's psychological fears. No woman wants to viewed as ugly do they? So, very powerful women were depicted as these hideous women as a means and method of control of the feminine. It has only been recently that the word "witch" was ever applied to any man. Yep, that indoctrinated fear of the feminine is still alive, unfortunately.

      So, keep doing what you are doing, no matter who is afraid of it. Keep at it, no matter who is intimidated by it.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      I said nothing about Christianity , you keep saying that.

      I will not post question and answers here because it would not be fair to you ,will write to you.

      And you are still a free person to judge .

      If anyone is trying to stop you then something is wrong.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      *slams door to Christianity*

      I'm done. So done. I'm going to go work on my garden. You have fun trying to preach and convert people, I'm going to happily continue with my religion.

      Blessed be.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You want answers that is good but it is not debatable .it is the truth.

      Also a book that has been preserved like gold .says a lot. For he is the ancient of Days. He does not have to make more books. When what we have is understandable. Many have tried to destroy his words but unsuccessful. I will answer your questions. Not a argument not about winning . Just for thought. You are the one that deserves the truth for all your suffering. Do not shut the door to it.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      I practice my religion at my mom's house, or else my dad might burn me at the stake. My mom is pretty much an atheist, so she doesn't care. Live at my mom's house is absolutely fantastic! I get along better with my sister and I don't fight my my mom's boyfriend as much anymore.

      Oh, and abuse has gone down since I asked the lord and lady for help. I have no anger towards anyone, I have moments where some many things go through my mind I release frustration out on anything close by. Depression and ADHD don't mix well.

      My path is different than most Wiccans, so some of the things you say are rendered invalid for me.

      You're stating things from the Bible which i already know. I have done my research, you haven't.

      I do want answers though. Where's the proof of your God? I have my own proof of mine, but I have yet to see any from yours. Also, a book written 3500 years ago doesn't count as proof.

      Come on, show me what you got. I'd love to see this backfire on you. Mostly because I /love/ winning arguments. I can counter every point you make.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Was your god existing when these things happened to you?

      Where was that god. to the very point since this was a problem in the home it could very well be the god you worshiped caused the problem. For there are god and goddess of sex ,and lust ,and many disgusting things . You were under your parents roof in their environment, if you practice these arts then you invited these spirit gods in your home. Who took advantage of you. You are not the only person who have been abused by a loved one. And you have a good question. And you have a valid reason for the anger inside. But that is not the way to heal. The true God does detest abuse in any form. But many god and goddess feed off of immoral behavior, like the fallen Angels who took women as wife's and had Nephilim babies. They were sexualy active with humans and still are. This is unnatural and dangerous. They also can kill you. I only want you to think about some things I am not trying to anger you. You want answers. I do my best to help.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      What truth? All you've stated is your opinions.

      Ah, and I was a Christian. I studied and read the Bible every night and prayed every day. I whole heatedly believed in it, but after 13 years of nothing helping, I converted. Guess what, I'm a better person now than I was when I was a Christian.

      When did I ever say I carried hate towards my family? I love my family and they love me. The only person who makes me wary is my Dad. He carries hate with him. He abuses me and my sister. What's so special about your God if he lets parents hurt their children?

      I have found peace, and it's in the lord and lady. I am truly sorry for you.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Again I do not define the hell as you stated and did not apply that to you at all. You did, my grammar is good enough that you reply in anger. So that is untrue also. I take me leave with you OT.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      I am not preaching I am stating truth, you do not know who I speak of as God almighty ,so your statements are not toward him, but if your Wicca allows you to carry anger in your heart toward your family and others then you still have not found truth and peace, I will take my leave.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      "True God"? You mean /your/ True God. Gods and Goddess make more sense to me. I will lock my heart to your God then. I want no part of him. You're freakin' preaching, which makes me assume your trying to shove your religion at me. Of course, this may or may not be your intention, but that's how it appears.

      You're grammar is atrocious by the way.

      You have the wrong impressions about Wicca and witches, and I'm sorry for you. I'm not evil and I'm not going to hell.

      Just so you know, your religion is man made. Pagan gods were around before the "One and Only God". You really need to do research before claiming you follow the only path out there.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      To OT again with all sincerity I am very sad for your experience .but if you really have read my post you would have notice that I included Christians as being false , you would have notice the many post I have written about false religion, as posted before your bad experiences has close the door on the possibility of connecting to the True God. That is like saying you had many bad relationships with men are are Jerks , when it was all the time the opportunity to meet the person right for you.

      Some times we do choosing based on our own imperfections of mistakes and make it worse. Just saying that we go searching ,but the problem is you do not for the True will allow himself to be found. When He picks you. But if you are locking the door to your heart then he can not come in. Also I have listed no faith on my post ,I have not told you to join me in anything. If people are telling you to join something then that is a man made religion, Almighty God Does not work that way.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      The only one seeing hate is you, K&T.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      To lady G it is very obvious I am a women. Not a man showing hate ,wrong again in your judgment, that is what confuses me about you ,making statement with wrong information,I never use the word toward anyone ,I do not believe in hate, I believe in truth and love ,but that is the only thing you can get from my post then that is what your mind and heart will only let you see is hate. That is sad.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      What...?

      What judgement?

      I'm so confused.

      I just said I was interested in learning what you believe.

      I... What? You're not making sense.

      I'm not afraid of you... I don't understand what you're getting at here... I don't judge people for their religion.

      Can someone explain to me what just happened...?

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      Wow Ollie I see you are almost the same as other who are afraid of me for being a minister. I don't know if I should take that as negative (which my inner feelings are telling me to at this time) or what. I do not make a habit of judging other and that is what religion teaches. I am agnostic is some respects, christian in others, and sometime even atheist, depending on the dialogue. I am not ONE religion.

      Have an nice day and I am going to go think about this judgment you put upon me for a while.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      LG,

      Man, I thought you were cool.

      Turns out your another preacher.

      But.... I'm quite interested in your form of religion. I'd like to learn a bit more about it if you'll so kindly tell me. (Email?)

      I love learning about religion.

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      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      K&T shows his hatered of mankind all in these comments. Doing so he has allienated those who he thinks that he is helping to find the truth, BUT he does not read his whole Bible or that of Jesus. He is a Paulean and not a Christian. Christ and Paul did NOT see eye to eye on lots of things. Though he tells me and many others who are stuck in this ROTE call me Satan and Evil names. Not anywhere in the Bible does Jesus tell us to do such things. He did not even say to convert as such. Being that he was and is part of the MAN made Religion he is taught NOT to see that TRUTH. He was taught that there is a Satan and a GOD that punishes anything that the MAN has put into the Bible that he uses. If anyone tells him the real truth he is trained to call names and to disregard anything anyone else says. He, and others, tell me that I teach out of the Bible, meaning that I teach other things than what the Bible says....that is the furthest from the truth that anyone can get. They are taught to be very fearful of anyone or anything that does now look or says what they have been taught. They are taught that if they do they will surely go to hell and burn in eternity for the rest of their days.......BUT there is a fallacy to that because at the same time they are taught there is NO afterlife and when you die that is it. The men want to rule. That is why the Bible that they use is all about Men and their power and how women are to be suppressed. Oh he will say something cute about that one. He and other will NEVER read what I have to say because the SWEAR that I am Satan. I am female and I have a voice and they don't like that so they BEAR FALSE WITNESS against anyone, especially females and anyone else that goes against what they have been taught.

      What Jesus said was the the kingdom of God is within you.....all there is is within you. All your answers, the questions, the truth, God, Satan, heaven and hell are in you. What you think and what you do is not from someone or something else. What you sow you shall reap and there are many other things just like that that Jesus said and it is even in Isaiah if he chooses to go look at that. Nothing is outside of you and they are taught that from the very beginning.

      I grew up Welsh Baptist, I went to Methodist and then to Roman Catholic---with an open mind. I am a minister and they all hate that because I do not teach Churchian, but that of Jesus and I do not teach Paul, and they hate that too. Jesus was a marvelous man and he did learn from various people's and cultures and he was far from being poor. I do believe that he was also married.....but they will not accept that. They made Jesus a Martyr for controlling other people and To Keep Us In The Dark At All Costs.

      Sorry for the soapbox and Sermon.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Hey, K&T, I just realized who you remind me of.

      My dad.

      He's a very strong Christian. But he's an alcoholic.

      He believes in God. But he cheated on my mom.

      He follows the ten commandments. But he still is violent.

      He reads the Bible everyday. But he abuses me and my sister.

      I thought Christians were supposed to be good, but like my dad, you have proved yourself to be more evil than I will ever be. You are not spreading love and truth, you are causing hurt, pain, and confusion!

      You're not helping anyone.

      You're just shoving your religion at people, expecting them to be open about it, when you're not even open about other people's religion!

      You're a hypocrite.

      Nothing more.

      You're not worth my time but I still respond because I want to show you that you're being close minded and arrogant! If you really want to follow the Bible, you wouldn't be acting like how you are.

      You are one of the reasons I hate Christianity. Hell, all of my friends and family are Christian, but never once have they acted like how you are. Never once have the bashed my religion or tried to force me to convert. I love my friends and family, and they love me. I respect their beliefs, and they respect mine. We agree to disagree.

      Maybe you need to learn how to love.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      K&T,

      How close minded can you be?

      You must have lived a sheltered life.

      For a religion so opposed to paganism, you sure stole a lot of our stuff.

      Also. Pentagram/Pentacle: For modern-day Pagans, the Pentacle contains many wonderful layers of symbolism. The five points symbolize the four directions with the fifth point as the sanctity of Spirit, within and without. The circle around the star symbolizes unity and wholeness. It represents the quest for Divine Knowledge, a concept which is ancient in origin and universal in scope from the earliest written ritual texts in Babylonia, to the Celts, to the Native American traditions. Similar to other figures which are made of a single unbroken line, this symbol is used to mark off magical enclosures or ritual areas, especially when used for invocation of deities or spirit.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      People are concern for the many commits I make ! True maybe people are tired of my commits . But I would never get tired of some one who cared enough to tell you the truth who cared what happened to me. I never said I was tired of commits people have made ,And believe me for years now ,So the words said to me are not new, and will not stop just because people disagree. When there is no reply button on hub-pages then I will act in that respect.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Well just like many ,you ask a question of a Christain, why would they be bothered by your choice. It really is not what christain are bothered by. It is the the one who created the heavens and the earth . It is his concern that you know the truth ,not allowing you to be deceived from the many false religions, and other fatal sources that tie into satan a fallen Angel who keeps deceiving people till the clock runs out in Our Heavenly Father 's favor.

      Even as many have stated what your belief is you can not get around the symbol that ties you into the pentagram. Which is still tied to The fallen angel known as the serpent and Satan. It like a flag that hangs .you can not say that is not a flag ,just because the meaning is different. When you look at it from a distance on a pole, or hanging people will still call it a flag. The same thing with your symbol. It still is his symbol even though you put a different meaning to it. He still gets your worship.

      I post to enlighten,to help others to think about the dangers in religion,and they make there own choices. People do get upset with the truth ,but if what you are doing is your truth then that is your free will. But if you see truth then it is a blessing for you.

      PENTAGRAM (FIVE-POINTED STAR pointing down): Used in occult rituals to direct forces or energies. Often represents satanism, the horned god or various expressions of contemporary occultism, especially when a goat-head is superimposed on the inverted pentagram within a "sacred" circle. See Heartagram, Baphomet and Pentagrams and Pentacles

      Reference Bible 2Ch 33:6 And he himself made his own sons pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, and practiced magic and used divination and practiced sorcery and made spiritistic mediums and professional foretellers of events. He did on a grand scale what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, to offend him.

      This is what can keep you away from the true God.

      I am sad you had a bad experience with bad religions ,but just like counterfeit money ,if you ever had a bad experience, it would also be hard to forget. But did that or would that stop you from working for and handling and even spending money again. You would not give up the possibilities of holding the real thing in your hand and continue to use it . But you can learn from the experience .the truth to the real creator is very much possible,and can bring you eternal life and happiness. The choice is short lived, and no future.

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 3 years ago from Australia

      There is always a common thread of all religions of love, compassion and tolerance.

      If a religion or non-religious group shows the opposite of these truly human tendencies ( if they show disparagement, hatred and ridicule) then they haven't learned one of life's most valuable lessons.

    • jlpark profile image

      Jacqui 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks for this hub - and, funnily enough - Paganism is not alone in the Most Annoying things that certain christians (not all) say to people. As a humanist agnostic/semi-atheist I see it all the time....I say semi-atheist, as many of the followers of many Gods whom I'm agnostically not sure about existing are slowly but surely turning me off religion in general. (Hmmm how about that for cross purposes of evanglism!)

      It is unfortunate that those who insist on speaking against something because it is apparently against their religion actually don't know their own religion as well as the person they are speaking against does. I have seen it many times against Atheists, pagans and homosexuals.

      This is a well written hub voted up!

      KT - must you take over everyone's hubs with your evangelism? If you believe so strongly - please use your own hubs. I'm sure I;m not the only one who gets fed up with reading your comments taking over everyone's comment section, particularly when the hub does not agree with your religious beliefs. I would happily read your opinion in your hubs, but it's annoying that you take over on a hub that has little to nothing to do with you. Hell, if you decided to actually stop the comments - I would even become a follower to see what you have to say. As it stands - you are very strongly turning people away from your religion by your way of doing things. I am saying this to ACTUALLY HELP you in your quest to convert people - what you are doing is achieving exactly that.

    • Kennedi Brown profile image

      Kennedi Brown 3 years ago from Richlands, Virginia

      Boy, have I ever been there. When I first started to seek out a spiritual aspect to my everyday life at around age twelve I evaluated a bunch of religions and decided Wicca was right for me. When my parents found out they threatened to commit me to a mental hospital if I didn't give it up and find a local church to go to regularly (of course they didn't think THEY had to go, too.) It took years before I was on my own and could get back to the spiritual practice I felt was right for me personally. I'm not bothered one bit by the fact that some people are Christians. I've never understood why it would bother them so much that I'm a Wiccan!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You are correct about Jesus ,Jesus was our example. Many things done in the name of religion was not a practice of Jesus. He love us ,he loved children ,women and men, people are listening to voice of satan saying it is god really not. A total lie. God wants us to live. If Adam and Eve had listen to the voice of their Father we would be directly talking to them today. The tree of life was in the garden also ,they got greedy thinking they would be like God Almighty their father. Instead the Angel that supported the wrong wanted to be like God and receive worship from them. Adam lived 930 years of age, just think it was meant to be when you have trees and animals that live longer then us today. And we were given the job to care for them.

      We are at the doors to the end. But right now people still are searching for truth. This is the only way to real happiness . Anything else is short lived and temporary. The True God and Father of our total universe lives forever and so will those who seek him.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Sorry Ollie was probably a poor choice of wording on my part.

      LG. Is correct. I had left this out earlier in any historic reference (meaning feminine spirituality) because I did not want to turn it into a gender debate. But whether you follow history from the standpoint of Judaism or from The Romsn Empire, women got the decidedly short end of the stick.

      KT had to that point been debating theology but when historical fact entered the equation it turned to a personal attack against me. Rome went out of its way to destroy as many historical references that went against canonized versions of Christianity as they could, including he Order issued to destroy the library of Alexandria in 391AD, AND ANY OTHER LIBRARY THEY COULD FIND.

      This is why the dead sea scrolls were buried. It was the only way to preserve them and protect anyone who knew anything about their contents.

      Ultimately in (I believe it was 2002) a group of scholars went looking for something specific, and they found it. The original teachings and gospel of all 12 was located and translated .

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      I could not read your whole comment. I am not blaming God or anyone. You do not seem to GET IT. Arm has already happened. If you do your research it was about a hill that was taken over by some people. It is done and over with. I am not angry, I do not have a chip on my shoulder, and I do not blame anything on some outside being. I take responsibility for my own thoughts and action... Christianity teaches the total opposite, but Jesus did not say to do what the Christians are doing.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      To LG I do agree with you about the mistreatment of women .I can see your point. And I am sorry for your experiences that you mentally had to suffer for the many bad experiences in religion. But I also have not been left out in bad experiences dealing with religion. So many people have been abused misused in its name, even innocent children. And the worse thing people fall for is they fall for who is to blame. Before they know the real story , many people are serving time in prison for mistaken stories and passing the blame on innocence. People are known good for that. People still do not know if OJ killed his wife only God knows. But the point is people have reached strait up to heaven to accuse God of badness and problems ,while satan known as a resister and fallen Angel is the whole culprit from the beginning. God almighty gave life to Adam and Eve. And the whole race of humans had not been born yet. Then Satan or fallen Angel talked Eve in to disconnecting her self from the one who gave her life. Her husband joined her. He wanted God's creation to worship him. And so he lied to receive it. was it a lie ? No all humans can die ,and they are born to die because Adam and Eve marked us from the time they ate of the fruit. Why are we here today God almighty worked out a plan to end death. So we could have the same chance Adam and Eve had to be perfect and given a paradise. Satan has been working hard to take that opportunity away from you and I by confusing people with many religions and customs that are not religious. To make people far away from the Heavenly Father as possible until the great day of Armeggedon . When he will be locked up. Others will not survive who helped him or support him in many ways.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Hey, SB... That's a bit uncalled for...

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      Speelbound 3 years ago

      Um, KT no one sid yo were "fearful of our beliefs". You are quite fearful enough in your own. You came in here insulting others, tthrowing biblical scripture at them...I merely threw it back at you with historical fact and somehow I am the bad person? Don't throw stones from a glass house.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      K&T,

      You're the reason people leave Christianity! It's the reason why I left. Seriously, if you want people to listen to what you have to say, and take it seriously, you have to do the same. Listen and learn, young one.

      -Pentacles do not represent Satan.

      -The gods and goddesses aren't the devil in disguise.

      -Wiccans don't believe in Satan.

      - We are not evil.

      Open your mind and stop being stupid. Please.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      I sure hope that I do not get my article taken down from another site but here goes:

      “The Church was so frightened of women that it implemented a rule of celibacy for its priests - a rule that became a law in 1138; a rule that persists today. But this rule has never been quite what it appears on the surface, for it was never sexual activity as such that bothered the Church. The more specific problem was priestly intimacy with women. Why? Because women become mothers, and the very nature of motherhood is a perpetuation of bloodlines. It was this that caused such concern - a taboo subject which, at all costs, had to be separated from the necessary image of Jesus.”

      ---------Laurence Gardner, “The Bloodline of the Holy Grail The Hidden Lineage of Jesus” You can read his entire lectures here: +www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_11.htm

      They had to do this so that Rome could win out over anything that they considered Pagan. Pagan had connotations of women leadership and the status quo of the Roman Empire did not like this at all. That is why there is such a fierce battle between women and men in the church and in religion in general.

      There have been women rulers that are mentioned in that Bible but they are downplayed by mainstream religion. God forbid there be anything about a woman in a leadership position mentioned anywhere including Muslims for they themselves disregard anything having come from women. That is apparent in that case of the 14 year old who spoke her mind and they sent her to jail and tortured her. Women were at the top of the echelon before Rome came into the picture. There were women like Deborah, Tabitha, Mary Magdalene ad Dorcas who were rulers in their time.

      This is what split to men from the women and how men hold on so tightly to their positions and really….really if you take a hard look at it……it does seem like they are afraid of women….even today.

      More here: http://www.bubblews.com/news/1775702-why-were-wome...

      AND furthermore:

      It was in the 4th century during the Council of Laodicea that women were first stricken from having any type of religious leadership in church. They weren’t allowed to preside or be a reverend, priest or minister over any church. Furthermore women were not allowed to approach the Alter.

      Later in the 4th century at the 4th Synode of Carthage, it was deemed that any “holy” woman could not teach men in any type of assembly and may not baptize.

      In 451 CE it was put in the Canon that women under the age of 40 were never to be ordained as a deacon of the church. This was a low blow to women as well because this stopped the progression of deacons to the priesthood.

      http://www.bubblews.com/news/1848396-when-were-wom...

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      There is no high horse to be on just your statements you posted I thought was strange.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      K&T I went over this with you on another hub. You Don't GET IT and you never will. Your mind is so closed that it is choking the sense out of you. I also wrote a hub about my beliefs and where and how I got them. Most of the comments had to be deleted because I was told things like I am Satan and I should be submissive to man....BULL HONKIE!!!! When I found the truth I will NEVER be submissive to ANY man. You can just get off your high horse.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      And to spell b. You say words that mean what you say and so do I ,I do not fear what man can do ,Nore the god you represent. If I did I would not be posting statements to you. That is one thing about the truth it stands forever,you do not have to remember it. Rehearse it, be ashamed of it because it is true. So if you think I am intimidated by your words I am strongly and fiercely not. But I am bringing it to your attention .

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Why I left Christianity #1

      Very masculine. I like wicca because it focuses on balance. Ex. masculine and feminine are equal.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      The only one that uses the word is hate like you just did! Why because you are the one that posted about women in the wrong light, you are the one that post things like God is a women when the scriptures says He. You are the one that can not face truth when you hear it. And never agree to a truth . You want people to accept your opinion never backed up by any truth at all . And if you did not care about what I post the why say anything at all. Your words prove false to your actions.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Um, kiss and tales where exactly did myself or anyone WISH for you to have a stroke? Iwhat I actually said was "hopefully NOT". You are not only fearful, ignorant,and arrogant, you are paranoid and delusional. I merely made an observation that you were getting quite worked up over a theological discussion of YOUR beliefs.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      LG,

      I'd give you a high five if this wasn't over a computer.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      K&T I do not hate anything about the Bible and get off that ridiculous assumption. I don't give a R@%#% if you like me or not. When are you going to take some self responsibility for spread the hate that you say others are doing? It is all coming from you. I am sorry that you cannot see that. You do not spread love.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      To LG when you can explain yourself clear enough and end the hate you have in your heart for the bible and many other things then I can accept your words of encouragement. I can not.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      K&T,

      Um.. I know that. I'm being angry for SB because you were being completely and utterly unfair.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Thanks SB! I'm right there with you! I feel better after converting. My depression has cleared and I'm all around better. ^-^ I may be young, but that just means I have more fire in my spirit! I will never let anyone look down on me because of my religion, sexuality, or gender. I'm proud of who I am!~

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You are not listening to the post my last post about the stroke was Spellbound. You are angry for the wrong reasons. But that is not the point of me posting to anger you. Far from my intentions. And now you are mad about a statement some one said to me. Again not my purpose . I will apologize for the misunderstanding . But not the truth.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Ollie, people like this have been around on this planet spreading fear and hatred wherever they go and infecting as many as they can in the process.

      That's the one thing about Paganism that is so tremendously comforting to me. I cannot speak for anyone else, but being free from that was like having a giant weight taken off...like coming out of dark tunnel and into the light.And I refuse to be drug into that darkness again by anyone. I don't find any fault in standing up for your beliefs. Never let anyone tell you what to believe, who to believe, or how to believe.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

    • profile image

      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      You are just... So arrogant and dumb. Once you come of your "holy" pedestal, then I might consider talking to you civilly, but right now you're starting to piss me off.

      I would personally never wish pain upon you. Wiccan rule of three: What ever you put out, comes back to you times three.

      Why would I want to hurt anyone if I don't want to be hurt?

      You are extremely close minded! Christians like you are terrible. Maybe if you bothered to understand anything outside of your stupid Christian world, then you wouldn't be so rude anymore!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      I gave you a web site with names ,your circle with star is still satan's emblem . There is no difference but deceiving you to believe it is different. Of the meaning. That is like saying as example I have a cup of water with poison, just because it looks like only water does not mean it is not dangerous to your life. If was just a little poison would you drink it? I would not. The point is it is that dangerous . And to SB your words prove evil wanting me to have a stroke? I never wish you anything but love and continued life. That's all.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Just didn't want to see you hurt yourself by raising your blood pressure needlessly. Conversion is futile. Give it up already.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      you haven't shared any truth though! You've just stated your beliefs! That's all!

      I respect your beliefs, and I ask that you respect mine. I don't want to fight, but I'm not afraid to stand up for my beliefs.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      There is never nothing bad about the truth. But there is something wrong when people ignore the truth. Never turns out good at all.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Kiss andTales,

      What truth?! All you've shared is your opinion!

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Merry meet, Spellbound,

      I try to ignore, but I hate when ignorant people talk bad about my religion.

      I've been practicing for over a year, and studying for longer.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      I won't be having one to soon ! And so far the truth speaks for itself.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      What's your source?

      An inverted pentagram can be used for evil, but I have never touched one, because I hate anything evil. None of my wiccan friends dare to touch an inverted pentagram.

      A right side up pentagram, is used to invoke good. The only kind I use.

      Get your facts straight.

      Said Satan all you like, I will never believe in him. Nor will I believe in "The One and Only God"

      I could explain to you all the reasons why you're wrong, but I don't want to sound like I'm shoving my religion at you. Can't we agree to disagree? I hate your religion, and you hate mine. Are we even now?

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Blessed be Ollie. Mabe if we just ignore it, it will go away peacefully. (And hopefully not stress itself out to the point of having a stroke.)

      So Ollie, how long have you been practicing?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      PENTAGRAM (FIVE-POINTED STAR pointing down): Used in occult rituals to direct forces or energies. Often represents satanism, the horned god or various expressions of contemporary occultism, especially when a goat-head is superimposed on the inverted pentagram within a "sacred" circle. See Heartagram, Baphomet and Pentagrams and Pentacles

      As written from what symbols mean from the internet.

      This is still not wholesome no matter what excuse you make for it.

      It is not the way to connect to the True God .it is a way to connect to Satan the God of death.

    • profile image

      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Fun fact:

      Pentagrams aren't the sign of the devil. They were wrongly associated with him. A pentagram stands for the five elements: Fire, Air, Earth, Water, and Spirit.

      Learn before you accuse.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      ALSO! Wiccans don't believe in Satan. We don't "stand up" for him. I have never, and never will, stand up for anything that promotes hate and evil. I am Wiccan because of my own personal reasons. If anything, I'm not the evil one here.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Satan ways are what you practice. It is his department of the mystical arts, and spells, the symbols you use are associated with him, people know this self. They have access to books and knowledge. Even the internet is open to the public. You can lie to yourself and others who want to listen to you . But the truth is this is a dangerous path to take and practice. Yes you will connect to a spirit realm but not a good one. This path leads people in the path of death forever. You might be asked for your life just getting evolved or someone you love in exchanged for your favors. To put it simple you may get results from your dabbling .but what you get is a short term outcome. One that can end life at there command.

      You refuse to admit who you follow. But you use his symbols and words in your post. That speaks for itself.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Oh my God. So many preachers.

      Can't we all agree to disagree and go about not trying to shove our religion down people's throat? You both seem to have very strong opinions, can't we just leave it at that?

      KissandTales, I understand you were brought up to hate "witches". But, ya know, we're not all evil. I'm a wiccan, but I would never hurt a fly. I only want happiness for people, and I prey happiness and peace finds it's way to you. You say how your religion is loving, when you've done nothing but throw it in everyone else's face. If I am going to hell, then I'm glad, because I wouldn't want to be grouped in heaven with people like you. Who know, maybe hell isn't that bad? Hell is just the absence of God. For all we know it could a meadow with nothing in it. Not that bad, right?

      Anyway, the point is, quit shovin' your religion at people. Until you meet God and take a selfie with him, then come show it to me, I won't believe in him. Probably the same with a lot of non-Christians. Just, understand, you don't follow the one and only path. You follow /a/ path. And I follow mine.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      That's right, all of creation fell from grace, angels, humans, those evil ducks....lol. you preach about love while spreading hatred and intolerance. Once again for those new to the classroom...Satan is not our belief, he is yours, and your beliefs are quite simply your problem not mine. If the concepts of your beliefs are so distressing to you, then you chose to cause distress upon yourself. No one here or anywhere else did that.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      There is nothing that leads to life or a future from your magic only death.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      What you are talking about still has nothing to do with the truth. You are promoting yourself and the deep things of satan. First you come off giving credit to the Vatican for your knowledge. And their history is not squeaky clean at all it disgusting habits are oozing out .Then you go way off into magic which is not a good thing at all which are the deep things of Satan. These gods you mention are the many names satan takes on just as he also is called serpent ,All these things you speak of have no benefit to people now and in the future. You allow satan to use you as a mouthpiece, when you gave him credit and said Eve was the problem. Eve was only a small part of the problem Satan existed way before she was created ,he knew she and Adam would Die if they disconnected from the Heavenly Father , for he was their life force that we all are plugged into to keep living, you are creating the same future for more people to die by promoting magic,spiritism,and other things that go with it. This is truth.

      You can say what you want . But I will speak the truth. not a lie.

      People have their chance to stand up for the truth or Satan, but people can be deceived not knowing how.

      Le 19:26 “‘You must eat nothing containing blood. “‘You must not look for omens or practice magic.

      Reference Bible Isa 1:13 Stop bringing in any more valueless grain offerings. Incense—it is something detestable to me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of a convention—I cannot put up with the [use of] uncanny power along with the solemn assembly.

      Reference Bible Ac 19:19 Indeed, quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody. And they calculated together the prices of them and found them worth fifty thousand pieces of silver.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      LOL Ollie, I wasn't arguing. I simply stated a few historical facts that inflamed little Kiss and tales there and brought out the true nature and intention of the numerous comments Kiss and tales posted to this article. As per usual, it starts out ever so slowly in that "let me just quietly sneak through the door with my bible unnoticed" method and slowly, ever so slowly start in on Biblical Scripture attacks on the Evil little Witches of the World. I will either convert them or bash them in some way and expose them for the true evil that they are. (insert eye roll here).

      Just like the author of this article stated, many pagan witches didn't start out where we are today. Many were indoctrinated at a young age in some other Religion (mine just happened to be Roman Catholicism) and went to great lengths to do all that was required of us. We study and study and study some more. This school, that school, every school we can find in a desperate attempt to become the "good little whatever faith we were told we were supposed to be". Eventually we get to that "wait a minute" point where our minds can no longer blindly accept what we knew did not work for us. And many are very highly educated about a great number of ancient histories, culture, beliefs, scriptures, scrolls and have learned to read several ancient languages as a result. (on a side note, I don't recommend the Egyptian Hieroglyphics as they can make you a bit cross-eyed if you ever plan on studying the Hebrew language..just a footnote). There are some people that are greatly intimidated by this and when confronted with any form of historical fact, or even a simple alternative point of view of something...well they can get quite nasty about it. ^see above posts^ lol "disgusting" lol "condemnation" lol oh, the "blasphemy" of the non canonized view of G-d (spelled this way in respect for the Rabbi who taught me why they do not spell this out completely....it's a respect issue, not a personal belief one). And that is the entire point. Why am I respectful of the Judaic Rabbi and not so respectful to little Kiss and tales here? You cannot respect someone who has no respect for you and refuses to have any respect for you UNLESS you change yourself to suit their idea of what you should be. This is not uncommon. Fear mongering goes a long way. If you do not subscribe to their beliefs, they will first try to sway you and when that doesn't work they will attack you in any way they can. Should it happen? Absolutely not. Does it? Absolutely. This has been just a good example of how to recognize this in early stages and how quickly a simple "theological" discussion turns into personal attack. ("your priests are guilty of .....(insert list here) as if any of that had one single thing to do with me or with my education). Hardly. In real life I would not have entertained a single thing this person had to say. As the Author here points out, this is exactly why they have taken to the internet and invaded pagan forums and everything else. We do not need "ministering", a little peace and quiet would suffice for us. We just simply refuse to hide in this day and age, and have no intention of going back in to hiding to escape it. I left Roman Catholicism many years ago and began my own spiritual journey that led me to be the Wiccan Priestess that I am today, and I have no regrets. My decision was based on the vast amount of information I had gathered through years of studies. Is it for everyone? No, it isn't. Is it for me? Yes, it is.

      And my thanks to the Author for this article. It is a very accurate depiction of what Pagans really deal with in everyday life. I meant no disrespect to your posts here. My "oh here we go again" alarm went off lol.

      Blessed be.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      He does not exist to you. But he is real as the air you breath ,evil exist and badness exist ,and that is his trade mark. But you will believe as you wish, and I will believe by experience. Not what people say.

    • The Agnostic profile image

      The Agnostic 3 years ago

      People kill. Satan can't kill, he doesn't exist.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      There is no joking of the serious abuse of children, rather people are Christian. Pagan, or any belief. There also is no Argument because the record and accounts speak for them self, the bible condemns any of these disgusting habits . Yet people condemn the bible for the doing of good to neighbors and children. To love people and respect them as humans rather that be a child or grown up. And what is more disgusting is how people will stand up for satan who is responsible for every human death on this planet ,and he is still killing people. With the hands of humans. None of this is a Joke.

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      New favorite thing to do:

      When my dad gives me a Bible to read, I drop it and shout "Ow! It burns!". Of course, I'm joking about it burning. He just gets so frickin' mad at me. It's hilarious! My friend's mom put a cross in her house, now, as a joke, I don't walk down that hallway without my pentagram. Makes my friend laugh every time. See, to a lot of people, religion is a joke. Why argue about it? It makes no sense.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Kiss and tales, I do apologize if you find historical facts distressing. They do tend to put quite a damper on your argument and examplify the authors entire point of what annoys us most. That does not make them political (although religion in ancient times ruled politically with an iron fist), nor does it make them any less true. It simply makes them inconvenient for you. No more, no less. Secondly I didn't trll anyone what to do. I merely suggested that if you aregoing to use scriptures from Judaism, it would be wise to know exactly what they are and not what you have been told by some other Religion. I couldn't care less if you choose to move to Florida and join the church of pizza. Hail to the pepperoni and cheese, whatever. I don't care.

      Thirdly, no I am not Jewish nor have I ever been. After spending nearly a decade studying under the Vatican I had a few questions about the Old Testament that I took to a Rabbi for clarification. After all, that is THEIR scripture. I still speak to many Rabbi and discuss matters of faith quite regularly. Why? Because they don't judge, or preach, or lecture. They also realize much of the Wiccan faith stems from Judaic mysticism. No more no less.

      But you still have yet to answer why are you here on a Pagan thread?

      Agnostic, those are very good, and very logical questions. However there is a big difference between magic and magick. Magic is an illusion designed to make you think something is real when its not. Magick could be described simply as manipulating existing and naturally occurring energies to produce a desired result. Energies exist not only within you, but all around you. Science is in its infancy in this area and while many pagans practice magick, explaining it is sometimes difficult. If you are looking for scientific examples that prove the existence of these things, then quantum mechanics is the place to get your answers. I hope that help with your questions. Blessed be.

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      The Agnostic 3 years ago

      Is there any scientific proof for any sort of witchcraft, voodoo or magic? Not any I have heard of. Are your beliefs formed through ancient scripture? Or do people do magic on the streets to attract followers? If this is real why is there not media attention?

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You may have said a lot but telling people what to do is not acceptable to me or any grown person. I have not posted to tell people what to do as you have. There is a free will hear to reply on hub pages. And I will do so .you have a right to disagree with what I reply to but that is all.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Your information is based on political out look and opinion .which I is not my point ,My point was to bring out the goodness of what he stood for. Love and goodness caring for many people. instead your info brings out things that has nothing to do with his character. if you are Jewish then you would totally disagree with his being God sent as the messiah , rather you accept it or not ,what has been done is successful . Rather you disagree that is your free will . But it does not erase the truth or what is to follow in the future.

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      Spellbound 3 years ago

      Kiss and Tales, you are adorable. The "life of Jesus" as you put it, is not "recorded in the Bible". The "Bible" as you know it, was written to achieve a political end to issues plaguing the whole of the Roman Empire. And rewritten, edited, corrected, etc many many many times over the past 1600+ years. There again you do not know your own history, or apparently any World History. The Rabbi, whom you identify with Jesus, did actually pick an enormous fight with the Jewish Temple and standing Judaic Law of that time period. What "Christ" was doing that violated Judaic Law was to attempt to teach the Kabbala to the masses which was forbidden and for good reason. The reason being that it can be very dangerous to those who are not ready for it. Quite honestly, if you made it through Genesis and didn't pick up on what it actually says, then you are not ready either. The "Torah" in and of itself is actually a test, a test that most people fail...the one that determines your "readiness" for more advanced teachings. The Old Testament is actually only half of the Torah (for the rest, you need a Rabbi). As for the prophecy of the Jewish Messiah, he will be born of the line of King David, a mortal man, who will return all of the (exiled) Jews to the Holy Land as a mighty military leader of the Jews and return the line of King David to the throne of Israel, builds the Third Temple, at which time Heaven and Earth unite under the One God, the God of Abraham. (the condensed version) There is no death of the messiah, no martyrdom, and no resurrection included in this Prophecy. "Jesus" was not the only master of the Kabbalah, nor were his "miracles" the only to be recorded of Kabbalistic masters. There was also Elisha, who raised Habbakuk from the dead (who eventually became the prophet who talked about the destruction of the Earth), healed the sick, restored sight, defied his own death....these things were not limited to "Christ", not by any stretch.

      In those times in order to study the Kabbalah, the Rabbi had to be at least 40 years of age, married, have children, passed the test of the Torah, as well as the Talmud and the Tanac before they could even get to the Kabbalah. These teachings are actually seen all over the world...Judaism was the only one to limit those teachings to a select few. Tibetan monks are known to levitate when they meditate, but no one is exactly marching up the mountainside with Bible in one hand and torches in the other. That seems to be reserved for the Wicca, who are known to do the same things, we simply call it by a different name. A rose by any other name is still a rose is it not? The problem it seems is that we are simply more visible; having chosen not to withdraw ourselves to some remote area of the planet.

      Christianity's real problem is not with other religions of the world, it is found entirely in itself. If you had any REAL faith in your religion (still amazes me how people still equate faith and religion as being the same when they aren't) you would have no need to be on this site at all. You would simply do what the Amish do and go about your business, but you feel the need to NOT do that....why? The Amish live the way they do without electricity and modern conveniences because they are defined as "witchcraft" (the definition of witchcraft was defined as it stood when it was written and not subject to change simply because time marched forward). So do not look down your nose at what you practice daily please. Oh, on a side note "it is your life, nobody can make you do anything you do not want to do" is good advice, now apply the same to the Adam and Eve story. The "serpent" didn't do anything. Eve made a choice to come to consciousness, and Adam made his own free choice to do the same. It is in this story that "nudity" is seen as a "sin". The "sin" wasn't in the nudity, that was how God created them and placed them into the garden. The "sin" was in their perceived shame of themselves. I think your time would be better spent in finding your own spirituality than in trying to tell others they are wrong for theirs. Blessed be.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Maybe that might be true . But it is your life ,nobody can make you do any thing you do not want to do. The bible is really a book of many good things, Jesus life and ministry was recorded with good deeds ,feeding the multitudes ,,healing people with many sicknesses restoring sight, and bringing people back to life after death, he did not war with people, he did not kill anyone, he did not lie to anyone, he loved people. And the one who sent him loved us even more. Also Jesus never forced anyone to follow him,or beat anyone to believe him. Really multitudes of people followed him and many times he received no rest to help them . There is nothing wrong with helping and loving people. But there is something wrong when people can not see good or love.

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      spellbound 3 years ago

      As Wiccans, we get the proverbial brow beating with "the Bible" more than anyone on the planet. Lol. To attemt to hold the Wicca to Christian tenans is as absurd as getting angry with the cat who won't bark. Ignorance and stupidity breed malice. Having these discussions with them is pointless really. They don't even know the origins of their own faith. We can start with the fact "Jesus Christ" isn't even a name, or should we start with the story of Mithras which came several centuries prior to "Jesus". They know nothing of this. If they did they would realize the "story of Christ" is a retellin of the story of the decidedly PAGAN GOD Mithras. Or maybe the fact that the Judaic prophecy of the the Messiah is completely different from what is portrayed by Christianity. You don't see them debating this issue with any of the local Rabbi do you? Pay it no mind dear. There is no evil religion, only the evil that exists in mankind. No human blood sacrifice is going to change that. What we do, we alone are responsible for. Personal responsibility has never been popular among the masses, not when denial proves an easier path. Blessed be my dears. And worry not what others say. Keep light in your heart and let it shine the way.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      I can think of a place in Somerset in Englands west country where the locals celebrate their folklore and modern practises side by side due to traditional values. A bit further west in Cornwall during the Reformation era churhes were ordered by royal decree to remove all vestiges of paganism. The abbot of Truro cathedral successfully argued that the stained glass windows were of pagan persuation but represented the garden of Eden and those windows remain to this day, Green man and all

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      Darha 3 years ago

      Truthfully I did not even finish reading your blog. The fact that you have come out of the closet , are a bisexual and are not embracing paganism leads me to believe you are seeking something but you don't know what. The Christianity which you say is annoying may just be what you are actually seeking. Study the bible and not people to get an idea of what Christianity is all about. Remember that as people we are always striving for the perfection exhibited by Jesus. None of us has gotten there yet but the goal is to keep trying

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      ORION77,

      *cough* Preacher *cough*

      Thanks for being a decent human being-

      Wait... You said all those things, then you still called the religion demonic?! There are so many things wrong with that, you know.

      Plus, it's hard to believe you when there are so many grammar and spelling errors. I'd consider listening to you if your writing didn't look like a teenager texting her friends. I don't want to have to decode your story like it's the hieroglyphics from Lost. (Really hope I spelt everything right so I don't look like a hypocrite)

      I just noticed you said Jesus hung out with the prostitutes. That's bloody funny! I'm laughing my arse off! I gotta tell that to my friends later.

      Jesus didn't do jack crap. See, I don't deny the existence of a man named Jesus, I just don't think that he was "The Son of The One and Only God,". I think he was a crazy man who told crazy stories, and from that, grew a crazy religion.

      May I point out, the Bible was written, supposedly, thirty-five-hundred years ago, then, it was translated and re-translated into all sorts of languages. Somewhere a long the way, it is more than likely that the wording and tone of the Bible may have changed to better suite what the church wanted, than what it originally said. Keep that in mind.

      Ok. I think I'm done here. (Note how I didn't shove my religion at you)

      Toodles!~

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      No one should tease or bully anyone ,we read nowhere that Jesus did this to anyone. So if a person is doing this they are not following Jesus ways or footsteps.

      The question you are really asking is why does this bring a negative view to a christain.

      Well to answer that , I can give you the reason why . From history way before Christs birth.

      The Jewish law handed down from God's by his representive known as Moses ,stated what was right and wrong. In order for their worship to be acceptable to the God who created all things they willingly agreed to keep all his laws and commandments. He rescued them from their oppressor pharoh of Egpt who enslaved them. When trapped by pharoh and the sea . He open the sea water for them to escape . Once all had reached safety . Pharoh and his army persued them . But with no success ,because that was when the waters came down on them all at the right time. The point is Jehovah fought for his people and came into a personal relationship with them. The laws he gave them were laws to keep them as his chosen and also to lead to a greater blessing to come. The Messiah!

      There were many laws ,but they started with the 10 commandments most people know

      . Reference Bible Ac 19:19 Indeed, quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody. And they calculated together the prices of them and found them worth fifty thousand pieces of silver.

      Reference Bible De 18:10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer,

      Reference Bible Mic 5:12 And I will cut off sorceries out of your hand, and no practicers of magic will you continue to have.

      Reference Bible 2Ki 21:6 And he made his own son pass through the fire, and he practiced magic and looked for omens and made spirit mediums and professional foretellers of events. He did on a large scale what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, to offend him.

      I hope this can answer your question. Not to say people are right in the way they do it .

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      themaskedgirl 3 years ago

      why do the Christians tease and bully pagans of witches im young and I study paganism theres no problems with paganism most witches are good not satans helpers we don't praise satan for us to die out and go to hell

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      To jessyk your statement is not true, that is like saying all men are Jerks just because of bad experiences with men. There is a true religion . The problem is many have not kept it pure as it was handed down by God and his son Jesus. What we have is many counterfeits. Or another example we have cubic zeconia instead of a real diamond of truth. Many can not tell the difference . But the genuine truth is available to the pure in heart. Not by their wisdom ,but the choice and wisdom of the Father who chooses.

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      Jessy Katz 3 years ago from Boston

      All religions are hypocrites...

      all of the monotheistic religions we have today started from the same Egyptian tales that were exist thousand of years before Judaism and especially before Christianity and Islam.

      so the next time some fanatical christian annoys you just tell him that his belief is leaning on some old witchcraft/pagan beliefs.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      Even the Salvation Army got harrasment from the mainstream faith at the turn of the 20th century. There was an affliction particular amongst children known as ricketts and another known as hives from the phosphene in the matches factory. Soup was given to feed the poor and soap distributed free of charge. One city authority tried to get the Salvation Army bandsmen charged with unlawful assembly and initially gaoled but released on appeal and the case thrown out of court.

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      ORION77 3 years ago

      I don't know what Christians you talk to but I am truly sorry for all you went through, im a Christian but seeing this page has made me sick to my stomach not because of what you said or your religion but of what Christians say. you're absolutely right about most things you say we have no right to shove are religion at people, but please don't judge all Christians or Jesus by some. there will always be followers of EVERY religion that kinda branch off and just give it a bad name. but like I said you were right about MOST things. let me tell you a story: there was a girl who since the day she was born was taught about how evil Christians are and how they kill people and are to judgmental so she became a witch and then years went by and God led here to a church not because she wanted to but because she had a friend who sang at that church, MY church. we then proceeded to pray with her ( with her permission of course) and she got free of depression and self-hatred and many more . when she shared her story we were shocked, and did whatever we could to help her, and now she is a proud Christian who knows Jesus SAVED HER! and im not saying "she was freeded from the evil that is witchcraft!" no but she had tormenters that were sent away and she began to see Christians and Jesus differently. she inspires me everyday, there is a way to talk to pagans but I HATE IT when Christians are evil towards you guys, but there is more to Christianity that meets the eye we shouldn't preach condemnation towards people but freedom! and when I read that you used to be so willing to Gods word you got hypnotized, I just have to tell you NEVER just act like "good Christian" Jesus provides more than just words, he provides POWER and FREEDOM! now saying what I have just said I have to tell you pagan religion IS demonic while it may not be has obvious as "sacrifice baby's!" that's not satans intention, all he needs people to do it put there faith in something, ANYTHING long enough for then to go to hell. he's too smart to straight out have evil pagan worship everywhere. demon will play you, use you, and eventually lose you. you see my church is not an ordinary church, everyone is either ex-pagans ex-Satanist ex -addicts etc. and we've seen the power of God not his judgment or persecution but his love so strong he builds bridges to the most broken of hearts. I know you were Christian but satan is IN the church and most churches have no power so every were hundreds are dropping out of churches for varies reasons but I want to say if Jesus was talking to you he wouldn't say "you stupid witch" or "go to hell" he would look at you with nothing but love and just try to help you because what most Christian misunderstand is that Jesus died to save EVRYONE not just good people, Jesus didn't hang out with the rich and the priests everywhere No he hung out with the prostitutes and the blind beggars! he died to save the heroes, the addicts, the poor, and yes the pagans, so I know this phrase is so commonly used its practically useless but Jesus loves you. he doesn't want Christians to treat people like that so again im srry for what what Christians have said but know that His door is always open

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      merrie we meet

      The Religious Society of Friends (or Quakers) were banned along with other denominations from openly practicing their faiths in 1652. This edict was recinded in 1688 by King William's Bill of Rights. Just look at what their achievements have been since; Prison reform, established the U.S. state of Pennsylvannia, improved working conditions in industries, feeding the poor during the Irish potatoe famine, ambulance units in both world wars for friend and foe alike. Now my point they don't care whether you practice conventionally or non conformiste, there is such a thing as Pagan Quakers who are non theist rather than mono theist. All life is precious

      Bless

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      Hey. Hey Kash!

      Shut up~!

      You're not being cool.

      You don't sound smart.

      You just sound like a massive jerk.

      You're very narrow minded and ignorant.

      Also, I'm bi- No, I am not ugly or fat.

      One other thing- the Harry Potter movies are bloody amazing. Unrealistic, but amazing. You can offend my religion, but don't you DARE offend an amazing movie. Clear? Good.

      Also, because I think you have the wrong idea, the Christian God isn't a vengeful one. As far as we know, Hell isn't just fire and brimstone. We do not have any clue as humans what the afterlife is like. Hell is just the absence of God, because the Christian God supposedly loves all his children and he would never want to kill or hurt them.

      I was born and raised Christian so, although I am wiccan, I know a lot about the bible and Christianity. I've watched the Passion of Christ, I hated it personally, probably because my dad made me watch it.

      So, all in all, you sound like the one who has been dumbed down. I hope you have a fun time with your religion, I'm having a nice time with mine~! Oh, and not everyone in the world will be a form Christianity, that is stupid and narrow minded to think.

      Have a blessed day!~

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      Kash 3 years ago

      Bet your fat and ugly and that's why you say your bi'. Bet you've watched Every Harry Potter movie more then once to . wiccans pagans they're all the same. There is no such thing as white magic- Its All Black. But of course basically all witches nowa days claim to be white' witches to act clean-Because on the movies they show the 'Good witches" in a nice light and make them seem so pure and clean- Sorry to bust your bubble but that's all Bullshit. In reality your / they're Filth.

      At least Real Witches who worship Satan actually realize who's running the show and granting they're little spells. Even the musicians you worship bath in blood and do the ancient satanic witchcraft spells

      You new age White Witches are retarded.

      A perfect example of what a real witch is to all you confused people out there.

      Go to Google type 'Lords of Salem'. Watch that movie. It shows what witchcraft Really is. Not the Disney fairytale bullshit Fat single dikes have made up in the last 50 years

      Even the people who run the World know you either get your power from God or Satan. They chose Satan and its pretty obvious if you look at the world or know anything about the whole satanic agenda going on right now through music and media etc.etc the richest women in the world Ms.Rothschild Go look at the most famous pic of her wearing a GoatHead necklace

      You people have been getting dumbed down on the truth since your cartoon days

      During the filming of passion of the Christ Both the actor playing Jesus & the director were Both Struck By Lightning within Seconds of each other while filming the cross scene. Lightning never stricks twice right. The news prob told you about the 2cent decrease on gas that day instead of filling you in

      Soon enough they'll be sticking the 666 rfid chips inside people hands just as the Bible said.

      When God comes and you see Us Christians join him in the clouds- Your screams of horror & sorrow & Regret will be music to our ears. Good luck.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      Good morning (London tyme)

      Germaine Greer the social commentator and activist has made two separate statements on the history of Pagans in this country. In Her first article on the subject Ms Greer moots the opinion of Wyche's warning of environmental destruction. There are concerned folk now in the process of healing our planet. In Her second article Ms Greer thinks people should regard their gardens as an 'interface with nature'

      There is a move amongst some rural residents to allow a portion of their land to regenerate back to nature. Accolades to Germaine.

      Many blessings to all living creatures

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      Merry we meet. Merry we meet. Merry we meet.

      Many blessings to all kindred spirits.

      Yours

      In the light

      Limpet

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      And to add you made a statement about men being superior in how women act toward men ,again I address that all Jehovah witnesses go door to door ,they could have no issue about men ,then the greatest respect, they speak to who ever answers the door , if that was a problem ,then only men would go to doors ,because they would not know who would answer ,then you also have girls and boys going to the doors if this was a problem ,then children would act similar, most people will tell you who have come to their doors not what you have stated . But with God's word. You have not found the truth with Jehovah Witnesses because you discredit the bible ,they live,believe it ,and will die by it , you dishonor it with words.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      You have not found the true region when you say the bible is As you quoted Anti woman, and they all protrayed as whores" everyone can read what you said, and then you mix Jehovah Witness in with that ungodly statement, it is you who come off with a superior attitude ,my statement is to address why are you saying it, ? there is an old saying if you can not say anything good why say it at all. I know you are incorrect because of my own experience with Jehovah Witnesses and as I mention faithful family members. So what ever religion you have found is not that one ,because God is love. Jesus is love, Satan is a liar, you are not the first two, because Jesus and his Father would look a their creation in dignity, not labeling women as whores. And they certainly would not discredit his own book the bible.

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      Jean Bakula 3 years ago from New Jersey

      I didn't say the women didn't go door to door in the Jehovah's Witness religion, or I never would have had a houseful of them every week. They cannot face the congregation at the Kingdom Hall, the women have to sit on a stage or in front of the room facing each other. I live in a small town and the Witnesses had trouble finding a meeting hall which had to be shared. It had pews, I was in it several times, as I said.

      You aren't even bothering to read what I am saying, you are so insistent you are correct and morally superior. I have found the truth, and it isn't in one religion. It's all about love and honoring each other and the Earth, something that is a tenet in EVERY religion. Take care.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      As I will end this I know a lot of Jehovah witnesses I have relatives that are witnesses They do not worship the way you speak. They are very busy going door to door to people's homes speaking the truth from the bible. Next they do not associate them selfs with the many ways and doctrines of churches they have chairs not pews ,not to mix them with churches , again they speak to many men as well as women, and children ,going door to door in neighbor hoods around the world, they give bible education free. Most people can tell you that they have been to their homes and knocked and offered a free bible study ,If it is a problem speaking to a man, why would they go door to door when they know a man could answer the door. Not correct in your opinion of this.

      I do not argue with you about your opinion ,but it is better said as yours ,then to say that is what it is. Because it is not. Next the words you use are really not nice ! Whores, is just a bad word to relate to the bible as example. You change your wording in the last post. But I will say if you are studying the bible I will give you my wishes that I hope you can come to some agreement and truth. Hope for the best for you . My last post to you.

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      Jean Bakula 3 years ago from New Jersey

      First of all, I am not surly. Secondly, I attended the Kingdom Hall with my friend several times for various occasions, and often had many members of her group in my home as guests during our two year study. This Hall had pews. I believe they had problems finding a place to meet. I know they could not face the men as they spoke at the Hall, because they spoke about it freely with me, at our weekly meetings in my home, as I found it ludicrous. I'm not saying the men in their lives disrespected them, but there was a general feeling that women were lesser beings. I never said women who read the Bible are whores, but they are depicted as the property of men, either virgins or whores.

      Christians are doing all they can right now to take rights away from women. While my views on abortion have mellowed as the years passed, I still believe in a woman's right to choose, and don't believe any woman should have to carry a child when she was a victim of rape. Then she is being raped again, because she probably had other plans for her life, which may have included motherhood, but later.

      It is true that people make poor life choices, yet Jesus chose not to judge them, while many who profess to be Christians, especially in our times lately, seem to look down on the unfortunate and needy, rather than to try to help them. They cut food stamps for hungry people and don't think we should be our brother's and sister's keepers, and don't want Universal Health Care. They won't raise the minimum wage so people can keep a roof over their heads. I think Jesus would not like that. I already said that there is good life advice in the Bible, I'm not attacking the whole thing, I'm just considering that it's been retranslated by many MEN, in many languages, and we know that certain books were left out, especially the Gnostic gospels, which was a Christian group who honored women and believed in reincarnation.

      We have a separation of Church and State in the USA, and it should remain that way.

      I'm not going to keep up this argument with you, and this is what turns people off about Christianity. It's followers get like a dog who won't give up it's bone, and won't budge an inch, or question that maybe the Bible doesn't have everything right. You are all right, and the rest of the World is wrong. Your minds are so closed. Think about that. Or are any of you thinking about what those scriptures that are often violent and raging saying? People were slaughtered inside those Walls of Jericho, that's genocide. Is that proof of a loving God?

      That's all I have to say, I wish you peace, and don't want to continue this thread anymore out of respect for the writer of the hub.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Also the bible existed way before the US was formed, the bible has been made into a book ,but before that parts of many writings have been found and inscribed on tiles, later on parchments, in Hebrew and Greek and Arabic . Something already established and written and preserved long-ago is not by the power of man but God. because no man would know details in conversations, details in numbers and be very accurate, details that we could not know as humans. Science is just now breaking through on findings when the bible already had spoken the truth.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      I have for some time now lived by the premise to Never underestimate th power of Woman!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      In due respect you do have such freedom to believe as you wish ,and we all have the freedom of speech here! Even you, with regard to your opinion , I must disagree ,in a person chooses to live this way , not forced I do live in the us as a citizen ,I do not see women forced into the life style you have mention, there are women doctors and lawyers and educators ,many people in the science field ,and I give my highest regard for their achievements, not all make choices like these, but if you want to have a husband and children that is where our future doctors and educators come ,again by choice.

      Next it seems if that is how you view people in general it their personal choices you disagree with the bibles message is far from what you have listed, people again chose ,then act.

      Again you said something about Jehovah witness ,I notice you mention a story of a person that is one, I know many I must not agree with your statement, of not facing pews, first they do not have pews, and how they speak I find strange . Because this is not the case, also you say the bible portray all women as whores ! Perhaps your thinking is off track , many times the bible is used in the court of law as a symbol of honesty in telling the truth, certainly a judge would not use it with the history of prostitusion, Could it be your opinions are attached to your own feelings that is personal surly not a fact. I know many that believe and read the bible and I can say they are not whores. And what does that make a man a whore man, far from it maybe you mean people who do not apply could make that a lifestyle of choice ,because the bible contains moral laws that forbid such a life style. Your opinion is what it is.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      I am currently reading about a little known sect called 'The Shakers' and it seemed Women were given prominent status in their hierachy.

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      Jean Bakula 3 years ago from New Jersey

      I don't think the Bible is going to cause me harm. It just isn't my set of beliefs, and I get tired of people who insist it's the only way, just because it's the only way for them. I don't go around trying to tell people to be a Pagan and worship nature, I don't care who or what they want to worship. The US was never meant to be a Christian nation, it was founded on freedom of belief. The far right of the Republican party has made such a fuss about "family values" because they want to keep women barefoot and pregnant, (still with no affordable daycare, no birth control, still with a man who deserted her when he found she was pregnant, and she is expected to hold down 2 P/T jobs paying less than minimum wage) hold onto their guns, and feel spiritual one-upmanship. I don't need that and it doesn't do anything for me. The Bible is very anti woman, they are all portrayed as whores. The Jehovah's Witness I read the bible with wasn't even allowed to face the men in the pews when she spoke, she had to stand sideways, when she had college degrees in 3 areas.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it, and it is true man has translated the bible according to their language. I could reason with you that there are translations that have been tampered with. But matter what who says it the message is the same in general, like the word man,woman, animals, heaven, God, life, death, these word exist in all translations ,we have to agree the words are correct. The next thing is death, is this real? it happening in seconds all around the world, from the beginning of time it is recorded why ,Births people continue to be born of women, sickness people get sick all the time, Government, many listed in the bible also in our history books, science proves the creation of many things,many animals with names who gave it! The question is what is in the bible people would find harmful? The bible even gives health solutions, morals that keep the body healthy . What is it you doubt that could cause you harm?

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Kiss and Tales: I do follow God, I don't have any problem with that.

      I don't believe the Bible is from any God, though...

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      Jean Bakula 3 years ago from New Jersey

      Hello Kiss and Tales,

      I respect your belief, and do know there is some very good life advice in the Bible. I just think it has been changed by man, and interpreted and misinterpreted so many times, that it's hard to say if the whole thing is true. I believe that Jesus existed, and was crucified, but that men misinterpreted his message, and that he never wanted a misogynist religion made up bearing his name. It is also hard to believe that every other religion except Christianity is wrong, intelligent people also took time to interpret and practice their beliefs in other religions too. I think it's probably all the same thing in the end, but explained by so many people, who are not perfect. But it's OK to agree to disagree. Best regards and I hope you had a nice Mother's Day.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      To J.Bakula ,I must agree with many of your thoughts ,and I can relate to the many religeous faiths I was exposed to even from a young age, but no matter how many different religions there are just like there is only one you, Jean Bakula , there is only one truth. I never gave up in the since I knew it could be found. But I had to be aware that there was a difference in being a follower ,or being a leader , and in many cases people use the power of religion in different ways, to get followers by using man made doctrines, their purpose is to gain money ,the other is power ,with money , remember the truth is free because it is a gift from God ,only man want to put a price on everything including religion . You mention pagan origin ,paganism goes all the way back to nimrod a mighty hunter of men and animals, he was the one who had the Tower of Babel built, a tower that would include worship to anything except the true God. Many of these pagan rituals still exist today, but have no ties with the true God, example ,people worship the son! They also worship the SUN! Those with these traditions mixed both ,the sun is still being worshiped. Tammuz was a god worshiped, and many still give him worship with the letter T as a symbol , which today they use the t shape to represent what Jesus died on. far from the truth, he died on one piece of wood known as a stake. in the catholic religion they use the symbol widely ,when it is really a pagan symbol, the Muslims have the Coran that was created after Muhammad died , he could not read, he only would quote inspired words by memory based on a story of a spirit that visit him in a cave, this spirit squeezed the life out of him as a form of torture to make him repeat certain words, he did and repeated them to his companions ,they would repeat his words for over 20 years . After his death they made the caran into three parts mixed with his quotes and other inspirations, Muslims meet at a shrine that contained 130 deities way before Muhammad was born, today in that same spot they idolize a meteor black rock or stone in Mecca is Attached to a shrine. But if you notice people believe this is proper and exercise worship as their believe.

      The point is there is something that always give it self away as false even if it is one detail, you can find the truth if you search and learn how to eliminate the defects of claimed truth. The truth has never been popular ,most people do not welcome it because it may mirror a persons motives, actions as being wrong, I have never known people to be perfect including myself but I do welcome correction in a way that it will make me a better person, and a better neighbor of fellow humans. The bible is correct in many things ,and it holds the greatest wisdom in many categories of life. It also gives us a future when many religeous believes do not, it gives us the invitation to be future citizens when the earth is cleaned off very soon , this is the good news people can look forward to .

      And it stands true.

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      Jean Bakula 3 years ago from New Jersey

      I searched many religions all my life, and never found one that answered my questions, or didn't seem hypocritical. I had a Catholic Dad and Dutch Reform Mom, and both were hurt by the restrictive rules and constant threats of going to Hell for simple and unimportant things.

      I don't even believe in heaven and hell, and my experiences in the Catholic Church were scary to me as a child. When I was in my late teens, I almost joined a Baptist church, I liked the feeling of community there. But I didn't want to have to keep pushing that religion on others, and felt too uncomfortable, and also like I was being brainwashed.

      About 5 yrs. ago, a childhood friend who was like a sister to me died of cervical cancer, which sent me on yet another search for spiritual truth. I read the whole Bible (which many Christians don't) and it was all about an immature, mean spirited God who was always killing off people and causing genocides because might made right. That was it for me. I decided to be my own Pagan self.

      I believe there is a pattern to nature, and some kind of Universal order, which I call The All, but that's about as far as I go. The All is part of everything, and everything is part of the All. It's in the Seven Hermetic Laws.

      When the majority of the world was Pagan, it wasn't getting destroyed like it is now, was it? Nobody respects Mother Earth, and this trickles down to Biblical teachings about men not respecting women. I haven't become Wiccan, because I believe any Divine energy must be androgynous. But I appreciate your speaking out, and hope we all learn to respect our differences, and our Earth, especially on this Mother's Day, let's give some thanks for Gaia for all the bounty she gives us.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      I do agree that he will gently lead you. And he will knock , as Jesus physically did in his visit here on earth, but rather many realize it or not he is still knocking, with truth, and it is good news as shared, there is nothing wrong with helping people, healing people ,sheltering people, giving them land to start a new way of life, building homes free of debt ,we all have seen what this world has offered under Satan's Authority,and is his time is over,we can accept the invitation of God ,or we can decline it by means of doubt,

      And personal gratification which is not worth the value of the future in happiness. This world as we see it now is passing away! Even man thinks he is so powerful he will use weapons against each other, and look the earth is ruined with pollution, our food is contaminated. Our air is poisoned , all because of mans so called wisdom. This is reality and this is truth.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Sure! Always happy to have a civil discussion.

      I always question the messenger, as do you. Otherwise, why don't you just take the Jehovah's Witness who comes to your door at his word and convert? If God is real (and I very much believe Him to be), then he gave us the faculties of reason and logic and expects us to use them. For you, the message of Christianity is one that rings true, and that's wonderful! But I'm willing to bet you didn't just accept it because it was the first message that came to you, right? You heard other messages and you examined them for their facts and reasonability, and settled on the one you believe to be the most true expression of God's interaction with and plan for the world.

      Also, I would challenge your assertion that the Bible is the only book that addresses all those issues. The Q'ran, The Tanakh, the Book of Mormon, the Eddas, the Book of the Law, and the Vedas, to name just a few. :) Most of those were around for centuries before what you call the modern Bible was cobbled together (in quite a controversial manner, too. The canonization of the Bible was an event that caused such discord that fist fights broke out and one poor soul even broke his nose!)

      I don't put my faith solely in man, though. My faith is in God, and I have to discern truth through the wisdom he's given me, the ability to conduct sound research and test the claims of all men and all religions, and the spiritual experience and knowledge that comes through years of earnest seeking. All those things led me to the path I'm on now. If any path requires you to either eschew logic and reason or to ignore spiritual experience, it's not the truth in my opinion. Also, I don't doubt. :) I went through a lifetime's worth of doubt during my spiritual wilderness, which happened to take place within Christianity for me. I doubt men when their message doesn't align with what I know to be true, but I do have great faith in God's ability to gently lead everyone to where he or she is meant to be.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Thanks in reply , but really you are questioning the source of the messenger, like the mailman do you question the mailman for the letters of business and friends and family sent to you ? Do you say to the deliverer ,I very much doubt your delivery because I am questioning you as a person why you are a deliverer or mail man ,Or do you accept the mail man is just doing his Job, and accept what is written is personal between you and the sender,

      Another thought on the matter is the bible is correct in many things even as you speak ,you are a witness to the truth ,as I read this list,a Man , women , birth, death, earth, heaven, and many more , spirits , there is no other book that combines are these subjects at once in explanation of there existence other then the bible , also explain why the Goverments that are listed in the bible prove to come true before they existed , Cyrus the great can be found in our history books , but the bible told about him before he even became powerful ,these things you live and witness day to day has proven to be true. You can doubt ,and you can believe what you wish ,but that does not make all the man made education you have .as being correct. Why is it you believe in man and his higher education of Collages ,But you doubt that man can be used to deliver the message of truth. If you doubt a mans ability ,then you must doubt it all even in all your man institutions of education.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Kiss and Tales, I understand that you feel very passionately about what you believe, and I can respect that. But you must understand that you're basing this off of your interpretation of the Bible you read, which is a specific interpretation that has been changed and passed down through numerous generations. You'd be hard pressed to find a 100% consensus on any single Bible verse in any single translation within your own church, nevermind within the whole of Christian scholarship, nevermind within the world. I would know, I went to Christian college and spent years studying the Bible under some of the foremost Christian thinkers in the world. It's not as simple as "the Bible says."

      Moreover, the commonly accepted Biblical ideal of "the end game" is not one that the rest of the world can agree on. What would be heaven to you would be hell to me, and vice versa, I'm sure. We all experience God in a different way. I sought for years within the Bible, as that was what I was raised to believe, and in spite humbly and earnestly seeking, Jesus Christ and the Christian Bible never rang true to me or answered the questions I had about the fate of my soul, the universe, and my role in humanity. On the other hand, Thor and Freya came to me in my darkest hour, giving me the comfort, answers, and truth I had searched for my entire life. To question that experience would be questioning God for me, as this is clearly the path He has shown me and wants me on.

      Every religion in the world has a "beginning and the end and solution," Christianity is just the loudest in most cases. I don't think there is anything wrong with the narrative presented in the Bible per se, I simply don't think it's true based on my own spiritual experience and research. WiccanSage is very correct in saying that we are not questioning God, but rather those who claim to speak for him. In fact, I often feel forced to defend what I know to be God's plan for me against those who claim to speak for Him and would prefer for me to take their word over that of the Creator.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      The saying everyone hears the beat of a different drum ! I will agree to that, but I will say what I hear and understand is real ,what I hear is a message of good news , a message of happiness for people all over the world ,sickness and death will be a thing of the past, no more bad Governments passed down to imperfect people, and the most greatest news of all is the resurrection of many people sleeping in death. What is wrong with the beat of this drum , what is wrong with this news of making millions of people happy, what is wrong in giving people their own land and building houses never owned by a mortgage of a bank, planting your food free of charge, no taxes! Enjoying to the full the earth.

      What is wrong when all badness is gone, hatred, and crime, and many injustices we all face. The bible tells the beginning and the end and the solution. What is wrong with that message?

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Kiss & Tales, you miss one vital point: No one agrees on what the CEO said.

      You say the CEO says one thing but the CEO tells me something else-- who am I to believe? You? or the actual CEO?

      Likewise, you believe God wants certain things (your experience, your scriptures, etc. confirm for you this is what God wants). But I believe God wants other things (my experience, my studies, etc., confirm for me this is what God wants).

      When you (or anyone) tells me "God wants you to do this"-- I am not questioning God.... I am questioning you. Because you are telling me differently than what God is telling me.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      I do not think it is a problem of understanding in what he wants them to do ! I think it is personal why they not want to do what he wants, like an employee ,you get hired there is policies that go with the Job, once you know what the company want you to carry out ,and is written it is up to you to either apply it in your decisions on your job ,or reject it and go by your own opinion of your law. The point is how long will you keep this Job ! Before the CEO gets the point. You are not in harmony with the company. You can get fired. The question here , is the company wrong, or the employer for not following company rules? Again what you are saying ,in your own words ,you question what you believe about the company? That your actions reflect it in not being in compliance with the companies rules and laws.

      So what you believe about God is how you act about him. The same with the example of the Job.

      Action speaks louder than words, what you do is what maters ,not the question.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Kiss and Tales brings up an interesting point. Re: People and a "God" (or let's make that Higher Power for a minute) "they do not follow his directions in the way he ask."

      People can't seem to agree on what God's directions are, and what he wants them to do-- Christians think they do follow Higher Power directions in the way it asks, Muslims think they do follow Higher Power directions in the way it asks, Pagans believe they do follow Higher Power directions in the way it asks.

      That comes down to the crux of the matter-- arguing someone isn't doing 'what God wants' is really just arguing 'you're not doing what *I think* God wants.'

      When people tell me I should not question God, I say, "I'm not... I'm questioning what YOU believe about God."

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Arabs? I think you mean Muslims. Islam is a religion, Arab is a very generalized term that has been stretched to include most inhabitants of the Middle East, however incorrectly. Not all Arabs are Muslims. Not all Muslims are Arabs. In fact, there are numerous other ethnic groups in the Middle East that predominantly practice Islam.

      I think you're also conflating the behavior of a religious segment of Muslims in the Middle East with the westernized, predominantly peaceful Muslims pagans would encounter in the States and Europe. If we were talking about what religious groups do in highly radicalized pockets of the world where violence is rampant, this article would be about the Christians in various nations of Africa for example who still hold witch hunts and slaughter us. Let's stick to comparing the type of Islam and Christianity that is typically practiced in North America and Europe, shall we?

      I'm obviously not a fan of how either Christianity or Islam as monoliths tackle the subject of being tolerant towards pagans. On paper, both positions are equally distasteful. In practicality with regard to the day-to-day life of the Western pagan, things are very different. I think I'll wait to write an "Annoying Things Muslims Say to Pagans" article until practicing westernized Muslims take it upon themselves to harass us in the way mainstream American and European Christians have.

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      Ian Stuart Robertson 3 years ago from London England

      If Christians annoy Pagans just check out and see what Arabs do to those who practice/alledgedly practice sorcery.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Couldn't have said it better!

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      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      I find it interesting, that in a hub about the most annoying things christians do, people are still preaching in the comments and posting bible verses. Didn't it say in the hub that it was one of the most annoying things? I personally think it is. Jezz, open your eyes and let it go, people. Not everyone is going to be Christian. The only thing you can do is calm down, and maybe talk like a civilized person (Nudge nudge, Twitch!). Ask about their religion, and share when they ask you about yours. No need to be rude and religion bash, which is what it feels like to me. But, then again, I'm only in high school, and I'm not very smart. I guess the only thing left to say is, I agree with WiccanSage.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Heh, well said as always, WiccanSage! I've always said (and my Christian husband agrees), that if God is really such a capricious being who would create Hell for those who dare to question Him with the brains he gave us, I'll be honored to spend eternity there. There will certainly be no shortage of intelligent conversation.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Hm, getting comments from a supposed kid who wants to become a witch with suspiciously similar IP addresses to Twitch, and they are also a guest account. Methinks someone has too much time on their hands.

      Since you seem to be so interested, I think you will find that the advice of most witches is to honor your parents and your faith by not practicing until you are old enough to be out of the house and truly understand what witchcraft is. Especially since we are still threatened with violence and even killed in many parts of the world by "Christians" who perpetuate the ideology that our earth-based religion is evil. True witchcraft generally comes from true faith, and true faith can only be built up over time with much study and commitment.

      In other words, no one is trying to convert kids, which is more than I can say for Christians. We believe that all faiths and practices should come through extensive education and personal experience, not indoctrination at an early age. Also, we don't proselytize to anyone, of any age. We're confident enough in our beliefs that if the gods want to call someone, they will. We definitely don't want unprepared initiates who aren't ready sullying our name even more since, you know, people use that as an excuse to harass us for practicing our sincere beliefs. Nice try.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      If twitch is right, the God of the Bible is really evil to torture people eternally for being wrong. I mean, if he knows we're oh so confused that we don't even understand we need some 'holy spirit' or don't even know how to get it, and he deprives us from understanding the Bible because we don't have it, then sends us to hell for it, that's a pretty evil God.

      I mean, you can't get the holy spirit if you don't believe the Bible; and you can't understand the Bible if you don't get the holy spirit, then God has just set up billions of people to fail so he can cast them into an eternal lake of fire.

      Sorry, but if you really believe your God is like that, how can you worship him or think he's great? If I really believed there was a God like that, I'd think he was a monster and I could not worship him on principle.

      But I don't actually believe such a being exists... and I don't believe that's a very good accurate depiction of the being that most Christians worship. If I were God I'd sue people for slander for making such offensive claims about me.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      If I hadn't grown up with people who talk exactly like that and are 100% serious, I'd assume it was a troll, too. lol

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      anony 3 years ago

      Wow twitch,you baka,didn't you even read the damn article..not sure if serious or trolling.

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      db 3 years ago

      Excellent use of irony, twitch.

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      Josephine 3 years ago from New England

      Oh, my. I suggest letting go of that anger and judgment. God is Love.

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      twitch 3 years ago

      You guys really have NO clue what the Bible REALLY says. If you are not endowed with the Holy to Spirit, it's IMPOSSIBLE to understand it. In order to have the Holy Spirit you must seek Jesus. I'm not talking about Protestant/Catholic Jesus but the REAL Jesus. ALL denominations are FAKE and it's false worship.

      The bottom line to all of this is as jacked up as Christians are, they are RIGHT when they tell you devil worship/Hell. God doesn't want ANYONE who does not worship Him according to HIS standards.

      Humans are in serious error when they think it's permissible to judge God. That is futile thinking that will get anyone a straight ticket to HELL. God is SUPREME and He will be treated as the Holy Spirit that He is. ANY who believes they can pick whatever they THINK is appropriate as worship and it's good enough or acceptable will be butt hurt at the time of judgement.

      You MUST seek the TRUTH and develop FAITH in order to find the right way.

      It's offensive to people who don't LOVE GOD. That's one reason you don't like what they have to say to you. The truth is difficult to take.

      Christians are also HYPOCRITES because they don't truly worship God either and so they have no authority to be in a unbeliever's face because THEY ARE GOING TO HELL TOO, especially Catholics.

      God is DEAD SERIOUS and I PROMISE when you guys see Jesus face to face, all of the stuff you believe now will seem stupid and not worth the trip of suffering you will be taking once He's done with you.

      I feel sorry for everybody. I grew up Christian and a difficult life forced me to live in the truth once I became committed to that, I found my way to the LORD. It's the BEST and most difficult thing I've ever done.

      If you have a rebellious heart it's going to make it twice as hard to get there. Your EGO has to go and you must submit to His will. The other sad thing is NO ONE IS REALLY FREE. You WILL be a slave to someone either GOD or Men/Devil. Men always seek to enslave others. It's been that way since the beginning and that's EXACTLY the way the world will end, IN SLAVERY.

      Smart people will eat crow and learn to worship God because men are evil and you WILL be abused, NOT FREE.

      I sincerely hope someone can understand this. God desires that ALL will learn to convert their heart to His will and choose LIFE.

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      twitch 3 years ago

      Isaiah 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. 47:12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. 47:13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

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      dl 3 years ago

      Why don't. Both sides show me there true power

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      Galadriel Thoman 3 years ago from Voorhees, New Jersey

      Excellent summation of the things we have to deal with. One thing I would add is that Christians believe our gods are new and made up, when in reality goddess worship and pagan beliefs have been around for several thousand more years than their religion; in fact, a vast majority of their religious habits comes from the "borrowing" of our faiths. Easter, Christmas (how many people know that Christmas was actually the birthday of a warrior god the soldiers worshipped?) that fish symbol, do unto others, the mother aspect of Mary...hell, even their Devil was taken from how Pan appeared to the ignorant. I used to live in Oklahoma, where you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a church, and one of my most enjoyable pastimes was to debate religious people about Christianity and paganism. It is especially fun when you know more about their own Bible than they do. Anyway, thank you for an excellent Hub!

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      The Youngling 3 years ago

      This post is really nice. It pretty much sums up everything in the YouTube comments on all of this stuff.

      Hearing about the vandalism and denied services to Pagans, and the like, is sad and childish. It makes me appreciate living in my village because here no one gives a fudge-noodle about what you do/say.

      Thank you for your work and research.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      The hub made me laugh a bit. I can't help it; it's absurd. I just let it roll off my back now, the people who really want to learn and understand will, and those who are just looking for scapegoats and enemies will never understand. I can't say I've ever felt persecuted-- misunderstood, sure, but there's a huge amount of difference between the two. Good hub, more people need to read it.

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      sheilamyers 4 years ago

      Believe it or not, I found your hub after publishing my newest one about lumping all Christians (or anyone) into the same category as all of the others in the same group. This hub was one of the "related" links that showed up under my article. And it is related in that it's wrong for anyone to simply assume everyone in a group fits into some neatly packaged stereotype.

      When it comes to a lot of my fellow Christians, they're exactly as you described them. They always want to put you down, stomp on your beliefs, and tell you you're going to Hell. That's always the wrong way to handle discussing why a person believes what they believe and/or why that person should be a Christian. Don't worry, I'm not going to slam you or try to "convert" you.

      I actually found your hub very interesting and full of good information. Some of it I've heard when talking to one of my co-workers who is Wiccan; some of it's new to me. Great job!

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      MysticMoonlight 4 years ago

      I really enjoyed this Hub! I like how you put things into perspective for the reader here, a break down of general knowledge that is sometimes overlooked or ignored or misunderstood. Well done on this challenging topic! Voted Interesting, Useful, and Awesome. :)

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      Josephine 4 years ago from New England

      I'm so sorry you have to go through all of that! I grew up in an area that sounds very geographically similar to yours. I actually lost my job solely on the basis of being openly bisexual, and it very nearly hurt my chances of graduating (even though I was the top student in my major.) Like you said, technically the discrimination wasn't legal, but... not much to be done when everyone surrounding you agrees with it. If Christians want to be seen the same as all other faiths, maybe it's time that they stopped persecuting people more than the others combined. It's not Jewish missionaries who are urging African converts to kill the witches in their villages... it is Christian missionaries. Sometimes it feels like they want us to pretend we live in a different reality. "I know these people with crosses keep punching me in the face, and it's only people with crosses, but I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that they're wearing crosses.

      I'm so sorry to hear about the vandalization. I think it's easy for people in more tolerant areas of the country to forget that this kind of thing still happens to witches on a regular basis. Stories like that need to continue to be told so we can all be more aware.

      I'm so glad you enjoyed the hub, thank you for taking the time to leave such an insightful comment! I don't know many atheists who practice, so it's always cool to get that perspective! :) Stop by any time!

    • OldWitchcraft profile image

      OldWitchcraft 4 years ago from The Atmosphere

      Great article. I really like your opening paragraph because when I complain about Xians, I'm often hit with the "all religions are bad" card. I'm an atheist and I wholeheartedly agree that all religions are bad, but it's the Christians who have put the most effort in trying to destroy me, personally. It's the Christians I fear because they dominate every aspect of life in my region of the U.S. I even wear a crucifix in public to throw off suspicion because I really do fit the negative witch stereotype and I don't want trouble. Wiccans here - who've made the mistake of letting anyone know what they are (one couple simply held a meeting a their home) - have had their homes vandalized and are denied services. No, of course, it's not legal, but you can't really stop it, either, especially once it gets started.

      You are right to point out that 8 and 9 are often stated one after the other. First there's a denial of the reality of witchcraft and then an expression of their fear of it. It's obvious such people aren't thinking clearly and that's what religion does to people's minds. I'm convinced it's a virus or a brain fungus of some kind.

      Accolades and voted up!

    • modernalchemyst profile image
      Author

      Josephine 4 years ago from New England

      Thanks for the comment! :)

      I agree, I think people need to critically examine all religions, test them and come to what speaks to them as truth.

      I've really never understood why people are so afraid of Pagans. In general, we just plain don't care what other people believe. We're one of the only faiths that doesn't require conversion, all we want is to be left to practice our faiths and respect those faiths that don't cause harm to others.

      Blessed be!

    • someonewhoknows profile image

      someonewhoknows 4 years ago from south and west of canada,north of ohio

      We are what we believe.

      At least that's seems to be the prevailing view in politics as well as religion.

      I was born into a Catholic family but religion is not as important to me as morality and ethical character in general.

      I feel there are aspects of many religions that have merit and some aspects that are self defeating and destructive.

      Any religion that goes against what most people consider secular laws that are generally accepted and also are aligned with many tenets but not necessarily all those found in the ten commandments of Christianity to me are welcome.

      I'm not up on the majority of religions but,as long as they don't require killing or maiming someone for transgressing their belief system or are any part of any ritual that requires a human sacrifice I'd be happy to have them entertain me with their chatter as long as they are willing to accept mine as well. I'd be content with staying out of their conflicts with others and hopefully the feeling would be mutual.

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